Is my guilt justified?
- Thread starter Barney
- Start date
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Ah sorry ws getting carried away with the theme of the thread maybe. Yes we do have to look at the outcomes of our actions. One of the scary things I learned on a H&S course was that a pharmacist who went out to help an old man who'd tripped over a bad bit of pavement outside his shop, said sorry as to his injuries ( not his fault ) whilst patching him up. The old fellas family successfully sued him as "he'd admitted guilt" by saying sorry
I hate the way things can pan out these days, a nurse I know wasn't allowed to administer CPR to a relative of a patient who'd collapsed with heart problems ( in a hospital ward) as they weren't a patient. They had to call an ambulance from another part of the hospital to "admit" her first before they could touch her, even though there was a crash trolley right beside her
GB
By Fixing the kids punctures have I admitted responsibility for the maintenance of them, In my view non of them were roadworthy and all were poorly maintained.
So either tell the kids that, and tell them to tell their Dad's, or phone their Mums and get them to tell the Dad's to get off their LFA's and make the bikes safe. Point out no brakes rapidly equals knackered trainers or no front teeth
cheers,
Toddy..........who would have made the kids do it, but under instruction.
cheers,
Toddy..........who would have made the kids do it, but under instruction.
H
He' s left the building
Guest
Barney, if I thought his dad was taking me for an easy ride, I would have told him to come back in four days time, then sold his bike on Ebay.
I wouldn't have felt guilt or shame, I'd be at least £20 better off and that would have been the last time lazy dad sends his son round for something he can't be bothered to do himself.
If I thought the kid was genuinely looking for help because his dad is rubbish then I'd have fixed it and made sure his cute mum knew how useful I am with my hands ... is that wrong and am I a bad man??!!
I wouldn't have felt guilt or shame, I'd be at least £20 better off and that would have been the last time lazy dad sends his son round for something he can't be bothered to do himself.
If I thought the kid was genuinely looking for help because his dad is rubbish then I'd have fixed it and made sure his cute mum knew how useful I am with my hands ... is that wrong and am I a bad man??!!
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I like ethical dilemmas and am pleased this one has gone the way it has. Defo with wingstoo though enjoyed twosticks thoughts on guilt shame etc.
I am just reading through the Charity Commission's "essential trustee" guide and it starts and ends with these two quotes
"be the change you want to see in the world" Mahatma Gandhi
and "Life's most persistent and urgent question is: what are you doing for others?" Martin Luther King.
I have no doubt that by fixing punctures you are not becoming liable for the safety of the bikes though I think it would be good to point out the danger of lack of brakes. Having said that as a kid I rode without brakes, just wore shoes out stopping.
I am just reading through the Charity Commission's "essential trustee" guide and it starts and ends with these two quotes
"be the change you want to see in the world" Mahatma Gandhi
and "Life's most persistent and urgent question is: what are you doing for others?" Martin Luther King.
I have no doubt that by fixing punctures you are not becoming liable for the safety of the bikes though I think it would be good to point out the danger of lack of brakes. Having said that as a kid I rode without brakes, just wore shoes out stopping.
I disagree mate, I think community's great but so is family and I know if I had a kid I'd rather fix his flat tire than his friend's dad and, if I had a kid, I'd rather their friends dad fixed the tire rather than me! It's not laziness or a lack of community responsibility, if the lads father didn't know how to fix a flat then fair play, and after he refused to, again, fair enough, I'd personally be happy enough to teach him to do it. Different situations, though...
For the record, we have a few kids who come round for bike maintenance every now and then, and me or dad (whoever's there at the time) are both fine with it because we know from bitter experience that their fathers are good for nothing.
Pete
I beleive fixing the flat and showing them how its done was the right thing, it's not just the bike its showing a good role model. It may not be expressed then, but sometime in the future theyll remember the episode as a "good" way to behave..
Pete, I think the difference is who you intend to focus on. It seems to me that the people who are saying "don't fix it" and/or "don't teach him, it's not your responsibility" are focusing on the *father* rather than the child.
It's as if somehow, not fixing it teaches the *father* a lesson. But the father isn't really the point.
What I'm focusing on is the kid. And that's who deserves help.
All of us adults should be role models for the children around us and part of that consists of offering whatever reasonable help and/or teaching we can provide.
This kid didn't pick his dad and from the sounds of things he'll have to work off the residual effects of having an uncaring father for a long time. Showing him that there *are* good adults in the neighborhood is a good thing.
It seems to me that anything we can do to help smooth the way for others is a good thing, not bad.
And as Barney said, he just whistled and wandered while the work was going on. OK. I wish it was otherwise, but It's a start. Kids do that. (As a father I'm richly aware of that..) But also what they do is think to themselves, "man, he knows how to fix things, that's cool..." and over time the kid might well want to learn more.
Someday this kid will be an adult. I'd rather have him modeling his behavior on Barney than on his dad, wouldn't you?
But hey, I'm the guy who stops to help people on the street who have a puncture and no kit to fix it. So I've got a bias toward diving in and lending a hand. I suppose I *could* just think, "tough luck you should have been prepared..." But instead I think, "hey, why not lend a hand..."
I think that's very true.
I guess the other alternative to the original conundrum could have been to send him back and ask his Dad to fix it, then after a week or so enquire if it's been done and offer to do it then. That way at least the kid's Dad had an opportunity to do it himself.
How about getting him to fix his own puncture with guidance from yourself, then when he has another he can show his Dad what you have taught him to do to be on the road to self reliance.
Have fun
yep thats the way to go! show the lil chap and he will show his kids when he is a better dad himself!
The other problem you've got, if they're the sort of parent that buys a dangerous wreck and lets their kid ride it, if you've fixed it and something happens and the kids hurts themselves are they going to try and get compensation?? Hate having to think like this but in this day and age you need to CYA.
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Thanks for your considered replies it helped a lot but I am now faced with another dilema.
I stripped down jacks bike and there was no apparent puncture that we could find, whilst I was fixing that Sadiqe(Spelling) came over and he had a puncture as well so I stripped down his and he had a snakebite through running it flat so I fixed that he was not interested in trying to learn how to repair it just wandered about singing to himself. Boyd came over and his dad (FLB) had just bought him a bike for 20 quid.
Boyds bike had no brakes at all nor brake levers, Jacks bike had no rear brake and the lever adjuster on the right lever was broken off , Sadiqes bike had no front brake and non had chainguards reflectors or lights.
Have I fixed their bikes to enable them to speed towards a nasty injury, or even worse?
You are a good bloke. What is done is done, what will happen will happen.
Beware of the cookoo child. Babies are born with the instinct to cry out to get what they want. In a healthy parent child relationship the needs are answered and instinct to constantly want deminishes. In an unhealthy relationship the needs go unanswered and they turn into demanding adults looking for a subsitute parent to answer their every need. My guess these kids are in middle childhood, they need to parent themselves as they will parasite off you, and everyone else in life if they don't. Wingstoo is right they need to learn self reliance. Tell them you think their bikes are dangerous, and their parents need to spend some on money on them. Maybe write a list. Give them tools and guideence, if they dont touch the tools, don't help at all.
My daughter had friend when we lived in the old house, she youngest of the massive druggie family. When she was five I mothered her, because she needed it. By the time she ten I spoke to her like she was an adult, because she needed to take adult responiblity for herself. We moved and their house got raided and shut down by the drug squad, i have no idea where she is now. Tracy beaker.
How about getting him to fix his own puncture with guidance from yourself, then when he has another he can show his Dad what you have taught him to do to be on the road to self reliance.
Have fun
Spot on.
Interesting thread this..............I often find myself in a similar situation be it bicycles (belonging to adults as well as children) or cars.........I'm often asked to help out and I'm usually willing to do so, as that's the sort of person I am.
But, I always endevour to help them do it themrselves......
Not everyone is "mechanically minded" but can often, if shown how to, repeat the proccess next time, it's just that they can't work out how to do it in the first place and or don't have the correct tools....
Often one carries out one repair only to identify another which may be potentialy dangerous or not, I have the habit highlighting the fault and pointint out any potential dangers to responsible adults. That way if someone disregards your advice it is their problem not yours.
You should not feel guilty in the slightest, it is not your responsibility to do anything for anyone, unless you wish to. After all there are professionals available out there who do this sort of work for a living and in the case of the local bike shop, they will often repair a childs bicycle free of labour charges, only charging for the cost of the tube or patch!
Smoggy
But, I always endevour to help them do it themrselves......
Not everyone is "mechanically minded" but can often, if shown how to, repeat the proccess next time, it's just that they can't work out how to do it in the first place and or don't have the correct tools....
Often one carries out one repair only to identify another which may be potentialy dangerous or not, I have the habit highlighting the fault and pointint out any potential dangers to responsible adults. That way if someone disregards your advice it is their problem not yours.
You should not feel guilty in the slightest, it is not your responsibility to do anything for anyone, unless you wish to. After all there are professionals available out there who do this sort of work for a living and in the case of the local bike shop, they will often repair a childs bicycle free of labour charges, only charging for the cost of the tube or patch!
Smoggy
Its been a while now and you've had some time for reflection, Barney, as well as the benefit of other's thoughts on the matter. How do you feel about saying 'no' to the lad now?
I think that Twosticks had it about right in his assessment of the initial situation. I was holding out some kind of hope that his return home with the punctured bike would spur his father into the repair. In the back of my mind I knew it was a forlorn hope as several years ago his twin daughters used to tag along when I took my daughter for a bimble, I still remember that they did not know what a frog was, they were nine at the time.
It used to anoy me back then that the parents never did things like that with them because the kids enjoyed it so much, I suppose I still am annoyed with them and that the incident with the bike yesterday was another attempt to spur them on.
Yodsa, I eventually capitulated(see post 17) and tried to show him how to carry out a repair. Now, with hindsight, I think I did the right thing twice, Firstly I attempted to prod his father into joining in with his son in an activity that he so obviously enjoys and phsically needs, secondly when it beacame apparent that things were not going to pan out for Jack I engaged him in the repair.
It used to anoy me back then that the parents never did things like that with them because the kids enjoyed it so much, I suppose I still am annoyed with them and that the incident with the bike yesterday was another attempt to spur them on.
Yodsa, I eventually capitulated(see post 17) and tried to show him how to carry out a repair. Now, with hindsight, I think I did the right thing twice, Firstly I attempted to prod his father into joining in with his son in an activity that he so obviously enjoys and phsically needs, secondly when it beacame apparent that things were not going to pan out for Jack I engaged him in the repair.
i have two sons who are 8 and 9 and bike mad.a couple of summers ago i was out doing things to the boys bikes and was asked by a couple of the kids if i could put a chain on etc , which i did no probs and did,nt mind at all.now they run about together on bmx and jump bikes and my house has become the local garage i think. most of the time i dont mind doing this ,they are just kids but recently have had a change of mind as some of them are older and have pushed their bike from there house for me to fix.but the final straw was the wee girls mother next door asked if i would fix a puncture and put her chain back on while her dad was in the house after work havin a beer,talk about taking the ****.and i was just home from work. i never done it and found out the girls mum had to put the bike into a shop to get repaired .
