Instructor - client ratio, on courses. Your thoughts?

[ammo]

Hi,

I am very interested in hearing your opinions and thoughts, on Instructor to client ratio when attending an overnight course.
There is currently no national standard. So for you to attend, or send a family member on a course, what ratio would make you comfortable.
Have you attended a course that you thought was understaffed. Alternatively have you attended a course that you thought it was overstaffed. (I dont need names, more your experience).

Would love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

Cheers.
Ammo.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I think it depends
Depends on what you mean by an over night course, what is being taught, who is it aimed at and who has actually turned up, what is the skill and experience level of the attendee and of the instructor.

I would say that for many courses, the over night part would be immaterial. If setting up camps/tents/hammocks is not something which is being taught, then I would not expect to need instructors to instruct on how to spend a night in a tent.

I have been on courses with single instructor where there were six clients and with the same guy where there were nearly a dozen. I didn't find the change in ratio any problem at all since much of the course was lecture and demo, and then the students working on their own. I can however imagine that such a format would not have suited a green beginner.

Taking a broad average, one instructor per five or six people seems to work well. More experienced instructors tend to be able to manage more people safely. Beginners being taught new hand skills might need more supervision.

I am fortunate never to have encountered really poor instruction. Boring and condescending, sure, but not really bad or dangerous. On the other hand, I have seen or heard of people attending courses who do the most inexplicably silly and dangerous things; not reading pre-course notes, not informing staff of medical conditions, not bringing the required equipment, refusing to follow instruction...the list could go on.

Biggest problem I have seen to harmoniously run courses has been failure of the people running the course and the people taking the course to really communicate what each is expecting of the course and of each other.

 

[abilou]

Depends on what is being taught and the risk element involved. Competence also plays a part, partial experience and risk perhaps 1-3, complete beginners high risk 1-1. I would say that I find it difficult to do more than 1-6 for instruction and supervision on my own. If the instruction requires assessment then the assessor should not be the instructor. Based upon similar tasking to bushcraft skills with correct and documented learning outcomes, risk assessment and assessment if required.

 

[Man of Tanith]

as others have said i feel it is dependant on what is being taught and the experience of the attendee's
i think C_Claycombs ratio is good 1:5/6 of course the 1 doesn't have to be the lead instructor it could be 1 lead instructor and then what ever title is given be it assistant instructor aspiring instructor etc n the others, mainly i have found 1 instructor is good to demo and explain the skill and then more to keep an eye out during the practical aspect of the lesson even if it just a spare person to ensure no one is doing anything daft

 

[C_Claycomb]

Supervision is different from instruction. Supervision gets hard with more than 1:4 and might be better at lower. Not everything or everyone needs to be supervised. One or two energetic tool challenged tyros in a group of 8 can easily monopolise two instructors when 2:8 would usually be plenty.

 

[BJJJ]

I train a maximum of 6 delegates, but this is delivering a technical course with a presentation and practical session. It really does depend on the level of instruction the delegates need to absorb and understand.

 

[mousey]

Being a cub leader, for outdoors activities the 'rule' states 1 adult for every 8 cub scouts plus the leader in charge...

could possibly be seen as somewhere to start? - but as others have said depends too much on exact specifics.

 

[ammo]

Thanks for the replies so far.
1-6 ratio, seems to be the consensus.
The reason I stated overnight was. What happens if an Instructor is injured? Nothing major, but enough to send him the A&E. What if a client is injured, and the instructor needs to take him to A&E.
How would you feel being left alone, without supervision on a course?
Also how many clients do you think, is to much for 1 Instructor?
I know they are just opinions, there is no right and wrong, no rules set in stone. I just appreciate the thoughts of people on here.
Cheers.
Ammo.

 

[BJJJ]

Write up an emergency action plan and list the possible eventualities you think are possible. It doesn't need to be a massive document, just cover what you think and hand out a copy at the start of the course. Then everyone has a good idea of what to do in an emergency. It can be quite basic, just a couple of paragraphs.

 

[Wayne]

In my experience having attended many courses in various activities there is a tendency to push client ratios to the max in the pursuit of profit.

Some of the leading activity providers for example work on ratios that I would never consider acceptable and led by staff with minimal experience.

Surfing the Internet I look at courses and think how can they possibly provide a client with the nest possible learning experience if the instructors have so many clients to organise.

Another thing that used to really annoy me when I was on a course was the “instructor camp”. At a set time the instructors would depart to their spot probably to have a decent meal after feeding the customers slop.

Total them and us mentality. I often wondered what would happen at 2am if a client was having problems and the instructors couldn’t be located.

I'm fortune enough that I will only work with high client staff ratios. I make less money but it’s so much less stressful.

 

[ammo]

I had a very interesting conversation, speaking to Jonny Crockett at the Wilderness Gathering. (Always a pleasure).
He said "If you have 3 instructors, or 2 and 1 assistant. Then if an instructor is injured, 1 instructor/assistant can take them the A&E, and 1 is left with the clients.
I think this is the best approach, I have come across, especially for expeditions
You would need really high numbers on the course, to make that financially viable.
1 day courses, are not such a concern.

 

[Broch]

Write up an emergency action plan and list the possible eventualities you think are possible. It doesn't need to be a massive document, just cover what you think and hand out a copy at the start of the course. Then everyone has a good idea of what to do in an emergency. It can be quite basic, just a couple of paragraphs.

I treat my wood as a working environment (If you sell anything, from a walking stick to courses, it is a commercial wood - or you can claim it is anyway). Consequently, I have formal risk assessments that would satisfy the HSE; one generic and specific ones for different activities. As long as you can show you have assessed the risks and have suitable mitigation in place and you have acted responsibly there should be no problems. This may be that you have a 1 to 8 ratio but have a good process in place to deal with problems.

However, I agree with Wayne (and I've been on one of his courses), lower ratios are far more enjoyable for everyone - in fact my preference is to just have two students for whatever I'm doing. So much less stress

 

[John Fenna]

When I was a full time Canoe Coach (level 4 Open Canoe) numbers I was happy to instruct varied enormously with the skills I was teaching, the location I was teaching at and the existing level of skill of the participants.
Teaching a bunch of novices the basic strokes on a shallow (wadeable) pond or canal I would take more participants than if I was teaching serious white water skills on the Ardeche.
If I am teaching knife skills to novice bushcrafters I want fewer participants than if I was teaching making nettle cordage to ladies from our local Dyers and Weavers group.
It is all down to Risk Assessment and how relaxed you want the course to be....

 

[Wayne]

Pretty much all of the above comments are sound.

As an instructor you need a sound knowledge of risk management. Risk Assessments are great in the office but nothing beats sound judgement in an ever developing situation.

One question you need to ask yourself is where you wish to be in the market? Bushcraft is a throughly saturated business with schools growing like weeds. Every time I go online another school has entered the fray. That’s not including the rash of forest schools etc out there.

So do you want to be totally client centred giving the best possible customer experience a John Lewis school of Bushcraft or be profit lead stack em high sell it cheap Home Bargains school of Bushcraft or somewhere in between.

Accidents occur when lots of small errors compound to make something truly exciting happen. I like boring.

I lead a lot of expeditions to remote locations any accident can lead to a serious situation for my clients so we have to take fewer risks. Higher skilled staff and make lots plans for every eventuality.

A friend of mine was leading a canoe expedition in the high arctic. Chap died of a heart attack hitting the cold water on a capsize. Had to wait a couple of days with the deceased gentleman, his son and the rest of the group for an evacuation. The remaining group voted to continue their expedition with the original leader. Imagine the responsibility and leadership skills needed to recover the body. Maintain group safety, organise the evacuation and deal with all the customers. Then continue knowing that the authorities would be investigating every aspect of their performance to rule out culpability.

This is an extreme example of leadership in hostile environments but lessons are there for even the casual Bushcrafter. Things can get serious fast.

What happens to the group whilst your client with the cut tendon heads off to hospital. What child protection issues does that raise? How is their course going to be impacted because some muppet couldn’t follow a simple instructions to use a glove when handling the kettle.

What the happens if another client later than day slips on mud and badly sprains an ankle. Do you leave them to get themselves to hospital. Call an ambulance? Remember straight to hospital accidents are potentially RIDDOR reportable.

There are no right and wrong answers until the HSE decides you have been potentially negligent then it’s your house and liberty on the line and you’re famous for the wrong reasons. As the owner of a Bushcraft School the buck stops with me. I’m the controlling mind, the decisions I make I need to potentially justify in a Coroners Court.

 

[John Fenna]

Wayne - you just put it in the words I wish I could have found.
A very good reply and it reflects the quality of instruction and relaxed (with care) feel of the courses I have seen you instruct.

 

[Broch]

There are no right and wrong answers until the HSE decides you have been potentially negligent then it’s your house and liberty on the line and you’re famous for the wrong reasons. As the owner of a Bushcraft School the buck stops with me. I’m the controlling mind, the decisions I make I need to potentially justify in a Coroners Court.

What worries me a little Wayne is how many of these 'schools' actually have carried out things like assessing risks (formal or informal), action plans, etc. or even understand the potential culpability of the instructors. Mind you, this isn't the only type of business that has operators below the radar without adequate insurance and relying on luck.