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Jack

Full Member
Oct 1, 2003
1,264
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Dorset
This might be under the right heading so please forgive me.


It has to be mentioned.


What does everyone think on the huge GM ( Global Megalomaniacs )debate?

Jack.
 

Roving Rich

Full Member
Oct 13, 2003
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I'm on the Organic side. We eat nearly all organic and grow some of our own. If it aint broke don't fix it! We survived thousands of years without needing to mess. There is just no way that the outcome can be predicted, a small mutation in our food supply can have drastic effects on human health. Do not touch.
Unfortunately the pollen from these GM plants is already on the loose, so is happily mutating our native hardy plants. From what i can make out it boils down to a few greedy companies wanting to gain an economic strangle hold on our basic food supply. It does seem to be inevitable in the UK. I don't believe we have the land area available to sustain our ever growing (over) population.
GRRRRRR :evil:
Rich
 

Roving Rich

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Oct 13, 2003
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Just to play devils advocate...
(I've used this one on my friends just to as a matter of interest..)
Right just suppose those nasty GM megalomaniacs were to do something useful. The example I propose is that they alter the Genes of the Elm tree to make it resistant to Dutch elm disease.
So the British countryside would be full of mighty elm trees that I've only read about in old books.
What do you wreckon?
Rich
:roll:
 

MartiniDave

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 29, 2003
2,349
124
59
Cambridgeshire
I'm showing my age now but-

I'd love to see rows of elms again. Certainly around where I grew uo the nature of the countryside was drastically changed by Ditch Elm Disease, a real shame.

One other devils advocate point, when is GM GM? Is selective breeding included? If so this has given us many useful breeds of cattle, strains of wheat etc over the centuries. Just a though, I may be way off target.

Dave
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,944
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South Wales Valleys
The example I propose is that they alter the Genes of the Elm tree to make it resistant to Dutch elm disease.
Ok... I get that bit.... but...
So the British countryside would be full of mighty elm trees that I've only read about in old books.
What do you wreckon?
erm... what makes you think that they would plant them in the countryside for all to see ... there is no profit in that.

Geneticly modyfiying a product takes vast sums of money, therefore the trees would cost a fortune. They are more likely to be sold to the commercial sector and the wood used for furniture or cabinet making.... and probably 'farmed' on private land with very little or no access. (proably no access because of the anti GM brigade... thats the usual excuse)

But it is a nice idea :)

Ed
 

Roving Rich

Full Member
Oct 13, 2003
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Yer right Ed they wouldn't, it was just to see if you would except GM if it was used for such worthy causes?
I don't include cross breeding as GM. We have been doing this since the year dot. Every couple that has children has secretly selected genes they wish to mix with. Along with every gardener that has kept the seed of their best fruit to plant for the following year.
Some say GM is just the same result it just doesn't take the thousands of years of subtle evolution to do it.
I say it is unnatural so the outcome cannot be predicted.
Cheers
Rich
 

Jack

Full Member
Oct 1, 2003
1,264
6
Dorset
Roving Rich said:
Just to play devils advocate...
(I've used this one on my friends just to as a matter of interest..)
Right just suppose those nasty GM megalomaniacs were to do something useful. The example I propose is that they alter the Genes of the Elm tree to make it resistant to Dutch elm disease.
So the British countryside would be full of mighty elm trees that I've only read about in old books.
What do you wreckon?




Nice one Rich, you have really put the cat amongst the pigeons now with that question!


Its a good point that you have put forward and you were right to do so as we must like at it from all angles.

Yes, we could have to countryside full of English Elms again, yes, we could all see the mighty Elms that are really only a memory in books.

Unfortunately, the argument falls down right there. Simply because the Elms that we would see, wouldn’t be English Elms. How can they be, they are genetically different! We could see Elms, but they won’t be English Elms.

What we must also bear in mind, is the fact that trees, like humans, suffer from disease from time to time and Dutch Elm disease is nothing new, our Elms were wipe many thousands of years ago, and they came back and they will again, without the intervention of man and his wonderful sciences!


Best wishes.

Jack.
 

Gary

New Member
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
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from Essex
Point is we shouldn't be modifying plants so they can survive the mess we've made, we should be learning from our mistakes and modifying our own behaviour. Pollution, over population, continual building, pesticides etc - all our doing and maybe our eventual undoing.

And dont even bother with the 'we could feed the starving millions' line either - last thing we need is more people polluting the planet.

Let nature alone and it'll come through ok, even if (in the end) we don't.
 

MartiniDave

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 29, 2003
2,349
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Cambridgeshire
Good post Gary.

Now, if we can only get people to turn away from our societies throw away life styles we'll be able to make the resources we've got last much longer. You know, build cars to last 30 years and keep them that long, not buying the newest phone every 3 months etc etc
I could go on but I think you all know what I mean

Dave - off to recyle my soap box :)
 

Roving Rich

Full Member
Oct 13, 2003
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Here Here ! Have some faith in your planet.
Most of the problems caused in the world are the result of Human over population. Only a politician will never tell you that. What is he gonna say you cant have children or maybe he'll suggest a cull?
How long would our current society last without electricity or the supermarket? It all looks very fragile to me.
(I found this nice soap box down the recycling centre, I'll just take it back again now eh....)
Rich :-?
 
Oct 16, 2003
154
3
55
Surrey
I'm really going to play devils advocate here: The original scope of the string was "GM". How many of you use commercially bought paints, eat ice cream, drink beer/wine, eat canned meat with aspic, have had the MMR jab, polio or flu vaccines, been treated with antibiotics, use household disinfectants etc? I could go on. All either look good, taste good, or make us feel good/better. All use GM to a greater or lesser degree. All have a greater or lesser impact on our environment.

We live with/cause genetic modification/genotypic attenuation in more aspects of our lives than I can list. Within the grand scale of all our "meddling", GM crops are but a splash in the ocean. I believe, compared to the long-term effects of some of our other human interventions, the worry about the effects of genetically modifying crops far outways its true implications.

Happy to debate over several pints of beer brewed with GM yeasts!
 

george

New Member
Oct 1, 2003
627
6
59
N.W. Highlands (or in the shed!)
Interesting point Andrew. Am I right in thinking that you're saying there's no point in worrying about GM crops 'cos there's lots worse things out there?

Don't know if I'd agree with that one. But you're right - there are lots of other scarey things happening.


For me the point is that no-one asked me (or anyone else)before they went ahead and messed around with all this stuff, not so that I could have a tastier/better looking/healthier Apple/Orange/Tomato or whatever but so that they could capture a bigger market share and make more profits.

If we are told that such and such a product tastes X times better than its nearest competitor then just like good little consumers we go out and buy it. The better taste etc is often only a myth (think Sunny Delight advertising and market share success). GM food may or may not be a nightmare, I don't know yet. But for the majority of uses it appears to have been brought about not for the 'good of mankind' like they often tell us, but just to get greater profits for the companies involved.
Now don't get me wrong, I've nothing against making a fair profit but not by ******g up the world my kids are going to inherit.

Same goes for pollution, nuclear power, road building etc. etc.

I'm off to hug a tree and pat bunnies now

George
 
Oct 16, 2003
154
3
55
Surrey
George,

I guess my general point was that there are things to worry about with more immediate consequences and, believe me, you didn't get a say in those either. However, with two kids and a love of the environment, I'm certainly not going to disagree with your valuable points.

Knowing a bit of "behind the scenes" info makes it difficult to know where to start worrying.

Andrew
 

Gary

New Member
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
1
55
from Essex
GM is another nail in the coffin of our species all species on the planet and its a nail (like all the others andrew mentioned) that we are driving in ourselves.

Do we need all that 'stuff' - No of course we dont. Does big business need all that 'stuff' - yes of course it does thats where its profit margin lays.

And just because we've screwed up everything else doesnt mean we should just sit back and say ok then, we're door mats bring in the GM oh and while your at it you can tax us to pay for it - yes Mr Government/Fat cat businessman its our pleasure to line your pockets.

Call me cold, heartless whatever but we'd also be better off, the planet would be better off is science hadn't found so many cures to illness etc either.

It makes me sad to see how bad things are and it makes me sadder to see how many people are ignorant to it. Worse than this how many people just dont care either way.

Everything the native american did he did with a view of benefiting his grandchildren and his brother creatures - we seem have grown into a state of mind where our greed and arrogance blinds us into not being able to see the damage we'll do next week let alone to the next generation.

Sorry soap box put away - never to speak again.
 

Jack

Full Member
Oct 1, 2003
1,264
6
Dorset
The point is this;

We have only just started to understand genetics. We all know that millions and millions of genes are needed to make life of any shape or form.

We are also fully aware that it only takes one gene out of the many millions to be missing to create a whole host abnormalities and problems. Believe me, we are only at the beginning of this science and our arrogance has already allowed it to be let lose upon all of us.

If you ever walk through the woodlands with me I will point something out to you that will change you mind forever and the chaps coming down to the hurdle making course this weekend will have this pointed out to them straight away.


Best wishes.

Jack.
 
Oct 16, 2003
154
3
55
Surrey
On a slightly lighter note:

The eating of junk food by the bears could also bring an end to the old adage of bears s**ting in the woods, because they'll be too bloody constipated!
 

JakeR

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 18, 2004
2,290
4
34
Cardiff
And dont even bother with the 'we could feed the starving millions' line either - last thing we need is more people polluting the planet.

I dont think you could quite say that. Being brought up in and out of south Africa i have seen the absolute devastation these people live in. Gary, how did you get to work this morning? Im sure if you drove you would be polluting more than these people would because they would live off the land in their own villages.
By saying they shouldnt be fed simply because they could "pollute" the world is wrong. It would make no difference if they were fed or not, they have the right to just live lives of comfort.
Effectively you are saying that we should cull the people living in these countries because there is too much of them. If GM were too feed these desparate nations, it would be one of the greatest days.

I do agree however, that alot of money is being made from GM, and we are using too much of it, one day we might pay the price.

GM is a method that needs to be controlled far more than it is now. And i also agree that alot of fat-cats are making alot of money.

If anyone wants to talk about it just send me a PM

I dont mean to sound harsh, it is just a subject that is very personal to me, i have seen it first hand, children dying.

No hard feelings.

Thanks,

Jake
 

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