EDC no more?

[Melonfish]

Okay, yes i know another knife law question but hear me out.
i was talking with my old man yesterday who is a member of GMP (greater manchester police)
now my arguement was i could carry my Victorinox round with me because well its blade is a folding non locking blade of less then 3"
however he pointed out that under the 1996 offensive weapons act it can still be an offence to carry it because i don't have reasonable justification by saying its my every day use tool and therefore its an offensive weapon.

am i reading this right? wouldn't this mean that an EDC is basically not viable?
i'm way confused and my dad is usually spot on with his law so i'm a bit shaken.

is claiming its an everyday usage tool enough to stop me from being locked up? i mean if i was camping i'd have more then enough justification but walking around with a swiss army knife on my belt now is technically illegal as far as i can see.
thanks
pete

 

[mrcharly]

Nah, he's wrong. Has it backwards.

If it is any of below:

A) locking
B) over 3"
C) fixed blade

THEN you have to prove reasonable excuse.

The wikipedia article is pretty clear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#United_Kingdom

If you want a more erudite explanation, go to Britishblades forum - there are some lawyers (and police officers) on there who can give a detailed explanation.

 

[shaggystu]

i'm not sure on this TBH but a couple of minutes with google and as far as i can work out the 1996 offensive weapons act applies solely to the sale of knifes to under 16's, and the prohibition thereof. i reckon that there's a chance that your old man is a little confused on this one.

if there was anything in the 1996 act that prohibited carrying a knife in public then these people would surely have found it.

stuart

 

[Everything Mac]

A policeman buddy of mine and his colleges are all under the assumption that a non-locking sub 3" folder is perfectly legal to carry without reason.

As said - over 3", locking, fixed blade etc require a valid reason.

Andy

 

[ArkAngel]

Unless you are under 16 then I'm afraid your old man is just plain wrong (in normal circumstances)

If you were arrested for something else and found to have the knife on you then yes you would probably be charged with possession of an offensive weapon.

As a normal law abiding citizen going about their daily business you are perfectly legal to carry your SAK

Your Dad or not it pains me to see the Police not understanding the law regarding knife carrying in the UK. If the government are going to put it on the political agenda then you would think that ALL police forces in the UK would be given a quick refresher as to what is legal and what is not.

 

[Retired Member southey]

"Under section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 it is an offence, punishable by up to four years’ imprisonment and a fine,1 for a person to have with him in a public place any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed, except a folding pocket knife with a cutting edge of three inches or less. It is a defence for a person charged with such an offence to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place. It is also a defence for a person charged with such an offence to prove that he had the article with him for use at work, for religious reasons, or as part of a national costume. "Public place" includes any place to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise."


from here matey. Knives and offensive weapons.

 

[brancho]

Unless you are under 16 then I'm afraid your old man is just plain wrong (in normal circumstances

Where in the law does it mention age?

Ps if the answer is buying you have the age wrong too.

 

[Melonfish]

Hmm i think its down to wording, for instance:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/26/section/1

see to me that says they can arrest you for carrying an offensive weapon but then does not clarify what IS an offensive weapon.
i know a lot of people bemoan the police for not knowing the law but then when the law is this complicated and honestly there is a lot of it, they can't be expected to know it all.
@arkangel i understand your frustration but my old man knows his stuff, hence why this gives me pause, granted he doesn't know it all but he is very knowledgeable, if you saw the size of the books they have to learn you'd understand that a "quick refresher" is utterly pointless. it would be like you having to quote war and peace on the spot when you see someone do something.

see one example he gave was of a lad getting nicked after night fishing, he had a small fixed blade in his box. well he has reasonable justification tbh and the old man said so and said if he was arresting sergeant he'd have chucked him out. sadly the fella accepted a caution on the matter from the police involved but he needn't have. so some points of law are quite clear to some cops but perhaps not others.
hell if its misty to me why can't it be misty to them?

 

[Retired Member southey]

why did he NEED a fixed blade for fishing?

 

[SimonM]

I had this debate with a DC who's son swims with mine, whilst sharpening a pencil with a folder.

He told me to put it away or he would have to nick me...:togo:

I laughed and told him to wind his neck in, whilst showing him a small laminated card with the wording of the law and a small ruler on the bottom. I downloaded the card in PDF format after a similar thread on here a few years ago...sorry I can't find the link now tho.

Anyway, said DC was a little put out that I had better knowledge than him...so I gave him the card and printed myself another one...I don't think he was that chuffed to be honest.

Simon

 

[mrcharly]

Hmm i think its down to wording, for instance:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/26/section/1

see to me that says they can arrest you for carrying an offensive weapon but then does not clarify what IS an offensive weapon.

An offensive weapon is something that you use, or intend to use, to cause injury to another person. For example, a tea towel is an offensive weapon if you have it and tell a copper that you intend to use it for throttling muggers, if you encounter a mugger.

 

[mountainm]

An offensive weapon is something that you use, or intend to use, to cause injury to another person. For example, a tea towel is an offensive weapon if you have it and tell a copper that you intend to use it for throttling muggers, if you encounter a mugger.

If it's wet and twisted then they would have good cause!

 

[shaggystu]

An offensive weapon is something that you use, or intend to use, to cause injury to another person. For example, a tea towel is an offensive weapon if you have it and tell a copper that you intend to use it for throttling muggers, if you encounter a mugger.

yes and no, i agree entirely that anything at all used in an offensive manner would be classed as an offensive weapon but there are also offensive weapons as defined by law such as; balisongs, knuckledusters, sword canes, extendable batons etc. here's a link to a full list. unless the offensive weapon that you own is classed as an antique then i believe that you have no right to even own such an item never mind carry one in public.

stuart

 

[MartinK9]

Snip > I laughed and told him to wind his neck in, whilst showing him a small laminated card with the wording of the law and a small ruler on the bottom. I downloaded the card in PDF format after a similar thread on here a few years ago...sorry I can't find the link now tho.

Simon

This card?

 

[SimonM]

This card?

That's the fella...

 

[MartinK9]

That's the fella...

I haven't got the pdf saved either; just a hard copy or two.

 

[Gailainne]

That link doesn't carry the PDF anymore, this one does tho, no ruler along the bottom

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?61552-Card-with-S.139-to-slap-in-your-wallet. 7th post.

 

[ArkAngel]

Where in the law does it mention age?

Ps if the answer is buying you have the age wrong too.

Yeah i know it's 18

 

[ArkAngel]

i know a lot of people bemoan the police for not knowing the law but then when the law is this complicated and honestly there is a lot of it, they can't be expected to know it all.
@arkangel i understand your frustration but my old man knows his stuff, hence why this gives me pause, granted he doesn't know it all but he is very knowledgeable, if you saw the size of the books they have to learn you'd understand that a "quick refresher" is utterly pointless. it would be like you having to quote war and peace on the spot when you see someone do something.

I really don't want you to take this the wrong way with it being your Dad and all but, i have a great number of mates in the police and have seen the books you mention, horrendous looking things that i wouldn't want to tackle.

However, your Dad is a police officer and he carries a warrant card to arrest people who are breaking the law. I would expect him to know which laws people are breaking when he arrests them.

This has been all over the news for a few years now and is a political hot potato, so i would expect him and every officer in this country to know what is legal in what situation and what is not.

 

[dwardo]

An offensive weapon is something that you use, or intend to use, to cause injury to another person. For example, a tea towel is an offensive weapon if you have it and tell a copper that you intend to use it for throttling muggers, if you encounter a mugger.

Are you not supposed to stuff the tea towel down his throat and pull out his socks? ala 24?

I have spoken to an off beat officer and a special, both looked at my UKPK and said "illegal!" both then looked up the facts and stood corrected.