Dartmoor.

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Pupers

Member
May 6, 2021
29
29
63
Dartmoor
Not being a great watcher of mainstream TV, I tend to watch the things that interest me on You Tube, mainly stuff relating to the great outdoors.

But I watched a channel by a well know Bush Crafter, who took his beautiful converted LR 110 to Dartmoor, and “wild camped” Yes Dartmoor has some amazing wild camping areas for REAL wild campers, live here and use them, but camping in vans etc is not permitted in car parks, lay-bys or open moorland. So I just wish this was explained by the gent making the video. He was breaking the DNPA by-laws, laws that are there to help preserve with wonderful area. I don’t consider sleeping in a conversion “wild camping” either, but I may be wrong.

They also moved on and “parked up” somewhere else out of the Park, now unless I missed something, he made no mention of gaining permission from the landowner, giving the impression that it was acceptable to do do this kind of activity. I think it just rude to do this, and very often just asking will get you an overnight.

I don’t own land, but do rent a Bushcraft area, so it is mine I guess. I would not take it to easily to find someone camping on my area, especially in a van, without making the attempt to ask for permission. What do others think, I just think it bad manners.
 

ScottE

Nomad
Mar 22, 2017
497
352
Norfolk
It’s a loose term, I’d assume he meant not using a camp site, no idea who you mean but if he followed the code of arrive late/leave early/leave no trace then not sure what issue anyone would have despite bylaws....
Our island is overpopulated with severe access issues born out of too many acres owned by too few gentry.

Would you have granted him permission to park on your “bushcraft area” ? answer honestly now....
 

nigelp

Full Member
The main issue is that he put it on YouTube and others may copy his example. I’ve not seen the actual video so he may have made comment about it not being strictly within the rules. If he is sleeping inside a vehicle he has already lost the natural connection that makes wild camping on Dartmoor so he may as well have used a camp site. He may have arrived and left early but those copying him may not. The bylaws exist to reduce the environmental impact of hoards of visitors who would otherwise take the p&*s and keep pushing the boundaries with their own excuses.
It is not wild camping in any form if you use a vehicle. It’s sleeping in a vehicle in a car park or lay-by!
 

ScottE

Nomad
Mar 22, 2017
497
352
Norfolk
I agree, but what’s the options nigelp? Banning all access? Education? Education only works if someone wants to be educated.
I wonder how the Americans manage to have such incredible access? Inclusion/access/and no big landowners sitting in their ivory towers sneering down at the peasants.
I’ve still no idea what YouTuber this refers to but he/she has clearly touch some nerves.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,709
2,628
S. Lanarkshire
I believe the English law states that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, and thus a law-breaker can still be charged with trespass, damage, etc.,

I think there are three strands here.

Firstly, is the fellow breaking the law by camping in a vehicle in that area?
Yes.

Secondly, access....and all land is owned by someone or held in trust.
Rules aren't really arbitrary, and they are often set for good reasons.
Too many people in one place totally screw up the area, for instance.
Too many vehicles and they totally screw up the paths/ bridle ways/ trails, etc.,
Overly popular hill routes have work parties who regularly spend time and a great deal of effort to restore them, to try to mitigate the footfall damage. Imagine that with vehicle access too, and I reckon that'd be a nightmare.

Thirdly, rights of ownership and free access....and that's an on-going can of worms where you have to forgive me any bias, I'm Scottish and being someplace outside of the curtilege of a demense, or on farming land or SSSi's, just for a walk has always been more or less acceptable practice. That doesn't give rights to use the land, to settle down, to take vehicles across it, etc.,
English and Welsh laws are much more defined. See my first point in the secondly paragraph.

So, do I think he ought to have posted his trip on YouTube ?
No. I think he might find it an own goal, iimmc ?

Personally I would love to be able to drive to many of the places I used to be able to walk into. I cannot now (rheumatoid arthritis) but having worked in those places and seen the damage caused by off road vehicles, I wouldn't do it.

Just my tuppence ha'penny worth.

M
 

Pupers

Member
May 6, 2021
29
29
63
Dartmoor
It’s a loose term, I’d assume he meant not using a camp site, no idea who you mean but if he followed the code of arrive late/leave early/leave no trace then not sure what issue anyone would have despite bylaws....
Our island is overpopulated with severe access issues born out of too many acres owned by too few gentry.

Would you have granted him permission to park on your “bushcraft area” ? answer honestly now....
To be honest, no I would not have given him permission, but it is not for me to do that, I do not own the land and would not want to upset the owner. I am also one that respects the landowners, respects the laws and by-laws of the National Parks, and am strictly “Leave no Trace”. Admittedly I live minutes away from square mile upon square mile of permitted wild camping, but I do not camp outside those areas. I respect the Park and what it offers in a lawful manner.

Without laws and regulations, the likes of Dartmoor, The Lakes and the Peaks etc, would be absolutely decimated beyond recognition, I know, I live in the DartmoorNational Park, and have seen the damage done, that is not something I want to see, and I am sure you don’t.

You mentioned the US in one of your posts. I take it you have traveled the States, I have. If you have, you would know that setting foot on private land uninvited, may get you more than a “telling off”

On another channel, one I have always enjoyed in the past, while the main character was preaching the “Leave no Trace” message, his mate was sawing the limb off a tree behind him! Won’t be watching him again.
 

ScottE

Nomad
Mar 22, 2017
497
352
Norfolk
To be honest, no I would not have given him permission, but it is not for me to do that, I do not own the land and would not want to upset the owner. I am also one that respects the landowners, respects the laws and by-laws of the National Parks, and am strictly “Leave no Trace”. Admittedly I live minutes away from square mile upon square mile of permitted wild camping, but I do not camp outside those areas. I respect the Park and what it offers in a lawful manner.

Without laws and regulations, the likes of Dartmoor, The Lakes and the Peaks etc, would be absolutely decimated beyond recognition, I know, I live in the DartmoorNational Park, and have seen the damage done, that is not something I want to see, and I am sure you don’t.

You mentioned the US in one of your posts. I take it you have traveled the States, I have. If you have, you would know that setting foot on private land uninvited, may get you more than a “telling off”

On another channel, one I have always enjoyed in the past, while the main character was preaching the “Leave no Trace” message, his mate was sawing the limb off a tree behind him! Won’t be watching him again.
The US reference was in regards their wilderness areas, I have travelled there and agree entirely.
The Norfolk Broads is my locale and I feel similar to you and Dartmoor on reflection of my comments, but stand by my feelings of this country of ours being over “owned”.
I have no option but to break rules to enjoy my wilderness time, but no one would realise my presence, controversial I understand but how do I find peace otherwise?
 

Broch

Full Member
Jan 18, 2009
5,141
4,493
Mid Wales
Personally I would love to be able to drive to many of the places I used to be able to walk into. I cannot now (rheumatoid arthritis) but having worked in those places and seen the damage caused by off road vehicles, I wouldn't do it.

It's important not to 'tar with the same brush'. It is truly heart breaking to see the damage done by off roading vehicles I agree, but it's perfectly possible to venture into the wilds in a 4x4 without leaving any trace. What causes damage are people who see the off-road activity as a challenge and will do so despite the conditions.

There are hundreds of thousands of miles of pedestrian only footpaths in the UK as well as thousands of miles of bridleways - there are relatively few un-surface roads where vehicles are allowed yet, because walkers want to walk them, there is pressure to close them to 4x4s. Unfortunately, those of us that travers them with care and respect for the environment are tarred with the same brush as the yobs that go out and trash the lanes and drive over ancient sites etc.

I have taken people who thought they would never be able to enjoy 'wilderness' again out on green lanes and they have been thrilled and delighted - it is possible to do it responsibly.
 

TeeDee

Full Member
Nov 6, 2008
7,621
1,619
47
Exeter
It's important not to 'tar with the same brush'. It is truly heart breaking to see the damage done by off roading vehicles I agree, but it's perfectly possible to venture into the wilds in a 4x4 without leaving any trace. What causes damage are people who see the off-road activity as a challenge and will do so despite the conditions.

There are hundreds of thousands of miles of pedestrian only footpaths in the UK as well as thousands of miles of bridleways - there are relatively few un-surface roads where vehicles are allowed yet, because walkers want to walk them, there is pressure to close them to 4x4s. Unfortunately, those of us that travers them with care and respect for the environment are tarred with the same brush as the yobs that go out and trash the lanes and drive over ancient sites etc.

I have taken people who thought they would never be able to enjoy 'wilderness' again out on green lanes and they have been thrilled and delighted - it is possible to do it responsibly.

That last part made me think. I wonder of anyone is offering such trips to the heavily disabled? I'm sure those whom are wheel chair bound would love some Green lane action.
 
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Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
36,709
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S. Lanarkshire
@Broch

I know, and you're right, and I was kind of sweeping in my reply. I really ought to have been clearer.

But, and it's a huge but, the vast majority of SUV's are driven by folks who have no idea of how to drive carefully over unpaved surfaces. Mostly if they do go off road it's a jaunt, it's an adventure and once it's by they don't care about subsequent damage.

Any footfall, or vehicle use, of land, impinges on it.

Farm tracks, drove roads, field entrances, corpse paths, pilgrim routes, lanes and holloways, even hundreds and in some cases thousands of years later, we can still see their evidences in the landscape, in the growth patterns.
We have never had so many people in these isles, we have never had so many vehicles, we have never had so many people 'holidaying', so much easy transport and access, so much litter, so much widespread vandalism.
We are a very urbanised society, and on the whole urban behaviour does not act kindly in the natural world.

I know that's a really broad generalisation, but if it weren't true, then I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

Our landscape is already very much man made, we've been doing it for at least 8,000 years, but we've never quite been so capable of such destruction before.

So, when simple guidelines like no vehicle camping is a rule on a national park, I think we need to just
settle down and say, okay, we won't do that and we will quietly remind others.

I'm among the first to say to folks to get out there, to quietly wander the world around us, that we belong in nature too, but the damage we're doing is mounting up and up.
It's the trickle of little things that causes damage and sometimes with totally unexpected results....the spread of the disease that's killing the native crayfish when they're already under threat by the invading one....last I heard was that the reckoning was that there was no hope for the native one now.....the disease was spread by uncleaned fishing kit and boots. But hey, everyone knows that the big signal crayfish are good eating, so they take the big ones, which means that since they are cannibalistic that more little ones survive and they put more pressure on the native ones....what I'm trying to say is that everything is interconnected and often in ways we don't realise until it's too late to mitigate damage. This is just one tiny example.

Lockdowns have been hard on everyone. I have tholed this damned disease for nearly thirty years now, but I have never been so homebound in my life before this.
I think it a great kindness for folks to think about getting those of us who are less able out and about again :) I am fortunate, I can drive and have the car at the door, but even so, there are an awful lot of places where easy access just isn't possible.
Walk lightly, leave no trace :)
 

Silverclaws2

Nomad
Dec 30, 2019
286
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Devon
Maybe the problem is the lack of respect we have each other and our respective pastimes in this deeply divided country where folk appear to be encouraged to lob abuse at each other of which is impacting on the poor old land.
 
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ScottE

Nomad
Mar 22, 2017
497
352
Norfolk
Instant gratification and a sense of entitlement are the issues: the Next/John Lewis/Sunday retail park consumer crowd found a new love for nature throughout the lockdowns, that love lead to them getting their slice of nature and leaving a trail of damage and shite that someone else would be “along soon to tidy up for them”......
Thank goodness the retail parks are reopened and that consumption can continue where it belongs.

Silverclaws2 is correct of course, but how to have respect for these people?
 

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