Care when travelling to America.

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Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Thought this may be of interest to some of you if travelling to the States with antique items.

A chap I know who is a Piper (bagpipes) recently had his antique bagpipes confiscated with no chance of return. (They wouldn't even allow him to keep them if he turned straight around and got the next flight out.

The reason for this is that there was ivory on the pipes. Seemingly in some states they are now confiscating and destroying items with ivory on/in them with no chance for recourse.

I can see why new ivory items would be affected but surely items with a proven provenance would be exempt. Just thought that in case some of you are travelling with items, say antiques, knives, tools and the likes that it may be worthwhile checking before you fly in. I'll try to find which states are affected and post it up for you.

Cheers,
GB.
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
This sort of thing has happened before to musicians. Plenty of stories on Chiff and fipple

Don't even think of flying to australia with a wooden instrument.
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
America did sign up to that, but seemingly they've been changing the law without telling anyone.

Seemingly certain States like New York are banning ivory totally. I tried to post up an article but the computer in the library won't allow it. Will try later on my own 'puter.




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Elephants and rhinos have taken center stage in global coverage of illegal wildlife trafficking, and the ivory restrictions are a cornerstone of the administration's new plan. (Read "Blood Ivory" in National Geographic magazine.)
This federal action complements growing momentum among states, such as New York, that are now contemplating their own ivory bans.
American rules governing international and domestic trade in elephant ivory are notoriously complex and have been further complicated by unequal enforcement over the years.
The new rules are designed to eliminate several existing forms of trade and, in an important step, to shift the burden of proof for whether ivory is legal from the government to an ivory holder. This shifting of the burden of proof is a major innovation, as most wildlife criminals in the U.S. benefit from the government's having to prove that endangered wildlife in their possession was smuggled. (Imagine a cocaine trafficker looking a DEA agent in the eye and saying, "Prove I smuggled it.")

Among key provisions, the new ivory rules ban the commercial import of African elephant ivory, meaning that it will now be illegal to import antique ivory commercially. (Read more in National Geographic's A Voice for Elephants blog.)
Likewise, sport hunters of African elephants will have restrictions on what they can bring back to the U.S. Before the new rules, big-game hunters could use loopholes in African and U.S. laws to bring back large numbers of "culled" elephant heads, including ivory. Now, hunters will be limited to importing two dead elephants a year.
The new rules are designed to force people with ivory to prove how and when an item was imported. Legitimate imports of, say, antique ivory for personal use or for use in approved musical instruments will have to come through designated "antique" ports. Or ivory will have to be designated for scientific or law enforcement purposes.
"Bold Actions"
The U.S. has the world's leading DNA laboratory for analyzing elephant ivory, a key tool in mapping poaching hot spots. Unfortunately, red tape restricting trade in ivory also hangs up exchange of ivory samples for DNA testing and law enforcement. Hopefully, the new rules will make this a smoother process, something parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) should also undertake.
What is most heartening about the U.S. announcement is that it signifies that the ivory crush the U.S. conducted in November 2013 was not meaningless. Destroying ivory is a symbolic act. It has no impact on the international ivory trade without additional action.
In 1989, Kenya burned its ivory, then voted for an ivory ban. Today, a growing number of countries are destroying their ivory stocks but without announcing any subsequent action to stop the trade. Tying action to symbolism is critical if change is to occur.

In all, the new rules represent a significant step forward in reducing the American role in the international ivory trade and in helping American law enforcement stop traffickers. (Related: "New WildLeaks Website Invites Whistle-Blowers on Wildlife Crime.")
"These bold actions give us all the tools we need to shut down black market elephant ivory trafficking in this country," said William Woody, chief of law enforcement for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "We're eliminating the loopholes that help smugglers launder newly poached blood ivory via U.S. markets."
Summits Are Important; Action Is Needed
On February 12 and 13, British Prime Minister David Cameron hosts a global summit on wildlife trafficking, focused largely on the African elephant.
Everybody and his uncle in wildlife conservation is clamoring for a seat at the table or an invite to a related symposium held the day before by the Zoological Society of London.
On the ground, from Africa to Asia, what's needed is the breakup of criminal ivory trafficking syndicates and the poachers they employ.
In the home, consumers need to turn away from ivory and the terrible cost in human and animal lives of the blood ivory trade.
In the halls of government, leaders need to engage the world's biggest consumer of legal and illegal ivory: China.
By closing down its domestic ivory market, the United States helps the world tighten the noose on the illegal ivory trade. Other countries should follow."

So certain States like New York would be worthwhile avoiding it seems.
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
One of the articles I found: -

"New restrictions on the ivory trade designed to create "a near complete ban" on the commercial sale of African elephant ivory in the U.S. were announced Tuesday by the Obama Administration.
Elephants and rhinos have taken center stage in global coverage of illegal wildlife trafficking, and the ivory restrictions are a cornerstone of the administration's new plan. (Read "Blood Ivory" in National Geographic magazine.)


This federal action complements growing momentum among states, such as New York, that are now contemplating their own ivory bans.


American rules governing international and domestic trade in elephant ivory are notoriously complex and have been further complicated by unequal enforcement over the years.


The new rules are designed to eliminate several existing forms of trade and, in an important step, to shift the burden of proof for whether ivory is legal from the government to an ivory holder. This shifting of the burden of proof is a major innovation, as most wildlife criminals in the U.S. benefit from the government's having to prove that endangered wildlife in their possession was smuggled. (Imagine a cocaine trafficker looking a DEA agent in the eye and saying, "Prove I smuggled it.")

The U.S. crushed six tons of confiscated ivory in November, the start of a global push to stop the illegal ivory trade.
Among key provisions, the new ivory rules ban the commercial import of African elephant ivory, meaning that it will now be illegal to import antique ivory commercially. (Read more in National Geographic's A Voice for Elephants blog.)


Likewise, sport hunters of African elephants will have restrictions on what they can bring back to the U.S. Before the new rules, big-game hunters could use loopholes in African and U.S. laws to bring back large numbers of "culled" elephant heads, including ivory. Now, hunters will be limited to importing two dead elephants a year.


The new rules are designed to force people with ivory to prove how and when an item was imported. Legitimate imports of, say, antique ivory for personal use or for use in approved musical instruments will have to come through designated "antique" ports. Or ivory will have to be designated for scientific or law enforcement purposes.


"Bold Actions"


The U.S. has the world's leading DNA laboratory for analyzing elephant ivory, a key tool in mapping poaching hot spots. Unfortunately, red tape restricting trade in ivory also hangs up exchange of ivory samples for DNA testing and law enforcement. Hopefully, the new rules will make this a smoother process, something parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) should also undertake.


What is most heartening about the U.S. announcement is that it signifies that the ivory crush the U.S. conducted in November 2013 was not meaningless. Destroying ivory is a symbolic act. It has no impact on the international ivory trade without additional action.


In 1989, Kenya burned its ivory, then voted for an ivory ban. Today, a growing number of countries are destroying their ivory stocks but without announcing any subsequent action to stop the trade. Tying action to symbolism is critical if change is to occur.

In all, the new rules represent a significant step forward in reducing the American role in the international ivory trade and in helping American law enforcement stop traffickers. (Related: "New WildLeaks Website Invites Whistle-Blowers on Wildlife Crime.")


"These bold actions give us all the tools we need to shut down black market elephant ivory trafficking in this country," said William Woody, chief of law enforcement for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "We're eliminating the loopholes that help smugglers launder newly poached blood ivory via U.S. markets."


Summits Are Important; Action Is Needed


On February 12 and 13, British Prime Minister David Cameron hosts a global summit on wildlife trafficking, focused largely on the African elephant.


Everybody and his uncle in wildlife conservation is clamoring for a seat at the table or an invite to a related symposium held the day before by the Zoological Society of London.


On the ground, from Africa to Asia, what's needed is the breakup of criminal ivory trafficking syndicates and the poachers they employ.


In the home, consumers need to turn away from ivory and the terrible cost in human and animal lives of the blood ivory trade.


In the halls of government, leaders need to engage the world's biggest consumer of legal and illegal ivory: China.


By closing down its domestic ivory market, the United States helps the world tighten the noose on the illegal ivory trade. Other countries should follow."
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,154
1,546
Cumbria
"The new rules are designed to eliminate several existing forms of trade and, in an important step, to shift the burden of proof for whether ivory is legal from the government to an ivory holder. This shifting of the burden of proof is a major innovation, as most wildlife criminals in the U.S. benefit from the government's having to prove that endangered wildlife in their possession was smuggled. (Imagine a cocaine trafficker looking a DEA agent in the eye and saying, "Prove I smuggled it.")"

What a sensible approach but that last sentence?!!!"Prove I smuggled cocaine!" Answer is "We got it from your @rse after you flew into the country!" Not comparable to something that is legal or not legal but the only way is to have proof.

Now my understanding is that ivory is illegal and can be confiscated unless it has provenance to show it is pre-1947 in its origins. If your friend had that then I would expect he could keep the pipe. If they confiscated it despite having the evidence that it is legal then they are in the wrong and I guess it would take an appeal or legal action to reverse (more likely it would, if successful, mean the owner got monetary recompense as the item would have been destroyed).

However it could just be that the Americans have actually heard bag pipes play and are just using the ivory as an excuse to take one of them out!!;)
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,154
1,546
Cumbria
"By closing down its domestic ivory market, the United States helps the world tighten the noose on the illegal ivory trade. Other countries should follow."

No it doesn't neccesarily mean that. China is THE biggest market for ivory by some margin. America is small in comparison. All you are doing is stopping a lot of people with legal ivory and depriving them of it just because they don't have the paperwork that satisfies some official following rules written by the ignorant. I do agree with stopping trade in illegal animals and animal parts but this does not seem right. One day antique ivory is going to run out and then they will have to actually go after the illegal stuff!! That and stop China buying it. Good luck getting PRC to enforce CITES with any degree of enthusiasm.
 

lou1661

Full Member
Jul 18, 2004
2,179
196
Hampshire
Whilst trying to remain non political, thanks for the update, I had heard that they were going to do this, let's hope that it has the effect it was designed to.
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Just feel sorry for the piper as they were about 120 years old. Mught put a different light on pipers travelling to New York to play in some of their street parades. Wondering off of the top of my head does mammoth ivory come into this? A lot of blades have handles made from it.
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,691
710
-------------
Think I prefer it played on Cello's...
[video=youtube;uT3SBzmDxGk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT3SBzmDxGk[/video]
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,780
1,517
51
Wiltshire
I think the whole problem of this ivory business is that though there is clearly a use and a demand for it, nobody can be bothered to actualy manufacture the stuff.

with advances in modern genetics, surely it would be possible to devise, say, a pig which had super duper wild boars tusks at 1 year???
 

Harvestman

Bushcrafter through and through
May 11, 2007
8,656
26
55
Pontypool, Wales, Uk
I think the whole problem of this ivory business is that though there is clearly a use and a demand for it, nobody can be bothered to actualy manufacture the stuff.

with advances in modern genetics, surely it would be possible to devise, say, a pig which had super duper wild boars tusks at 1 year???

The trouble with this is that there are different grades of ivory, and the quality depends on how slowly it grows. So elephant ivory is best, then stuff like walrus, narwhal and hippo, then pig. Not to mention that genetic engineering isn't that simple either, and there are all sorts of legal and ethical considerations too.
 

Wayne

Mod
Mod
Dec 7, 2003
3,750
642
51
West Sussex
www.forestknights.co.uk
If you're travelling to a foreign land then its your responsibility to do your homework. We do not accept that ignorance of the law is an excuse in this country so why would we expect others to behave differently. A few hours researching can save days at border crossings and expensive legal fees.
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,780
1,517
51
Wiltshire
A good piece of advice but Im sure the Unfortunate instrument owner didnt even think about the fact he was carrying ivory.

Ethical concerns? Compared to the miserable farce we already have?

We might cut out the middleman and grow it in a vat; Imagine a solid block of ivory six foot on a side. How many pathetic elephants would that be worth?

The fact is, there has been a market for ivory since the middle Palaeolithic and it wont go away. The only logical thing to do is find another solution, like with diamonds. We can now make an artificial product that is far superior to the natural one. (which is a marvelous and worthy achievement in its own right)

(And I doubt De Biers will get excited about a tusker pig)

(I suspect a mammoth might be an alternative but they cost a lot to feed. Good underwool though.)
 

TarHeelBrit

Full Member
Mar 13, 2014
687
3
62
Alone now.
That's outrageous! Essentially legalised theft.

Yeah tell me about it. Over here the coppers can confiscate your money and belongings even if the owner hasn't commited a crime it's called "civil asset forfeiture". There's articles online about how police depts and town halls draw up wish lists of desired cars, tv's, jewelry, etc and split the proceeds

Also the supreme court has upheld a traffic stop even though no law was broken. Here in NC a trooper (I beleive) pulled a car for a broken taillight even though state law only requires one working brake light. During a search of the vehicle drugs were found and he was charged with posession-intent-to-supply. His lawyer tried to get it dismissed because it was the result of illegal stop and search. The courts siding with the establishment released a statement that a police office can stop any vehicle if he/she thinks there's an infraction. Effiectivily giving cops carte blanche to stop anyone they feel like.

Sorry if this offends any American members but it has to be said America no longer land of the free. It's becoming a police state
 

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