Building a stone cabin type shelter

[fishy1]

I'm planning to build a cabin type shelter, in some woods beside a loch. Absolutely brilliant location, amazing biodiversity, but it is hard to get to. Access is down a very steep slope, requiring very careful downclimbing or abseiling when carrying heavy loads. Climbing out you would need to be a reasonable rock climber. I'm planning to fix some ropes in place. Fortunately I can climb a bit, and it'll prevent casual strollers from stumbling accross it and breaking it.

But anyways, this place needs to be pretty discrete, as I don't want something sticking out. Therefore, I was thinking of building it into the hillside, with a bit of soil and heather etc on top, so you'd just see a door in the side of a slope and no other visible features. Drystone walls are what I'm thinking for most of it, as carrying loads of cement down will not be fun. A lot of fallen wood I can use, so I will cut a few rafters for the roof, and floorboards etc. Would there be major condensation issues with this design? Could I get away without lining the hole in the hill with polythene sheeting?

Planning to build some kind of stove or fireplace inside, first of all I though of a steel stove, but my welding is not brilliant and it would weigh a ton, and be expensive. So, I thought, in a fit of inspiration from visiting ruined castles, I'd build a small oven, e.g old bread oven style. That appealed as we could have a fire for breakfast, then get a stew and chuck it in and let the residual heat cook it through the day while we are out. Plus, I like cooking, and with a bread oven, I could bake pizzas and stuff.

But to my main question: Would I need to wait for the wood to season first before I put it in? As it's a lot easier to work green, and I don't want to be waiting years for it to dry.

The building should be no problem, I'm pretty fit and I have previously done building work, however not drystone.

Anyone with ideas/thoughts I may have possibly overlooked, feel free to mention them.

 

[w00dsmoke]

I built a dug in drystone lined shelter in a scree slope once in the cairngorms, it was pretty cool but took ages to build. I was a dyker for a couple of years so walling was no problem. I think you have to realise how much stone you are going to need will be huge, even for a low walled shelter. The foundationes need to be well footed and any revettment into the hill side needs to be well drained and footed too. I would use gravel in the floor for drainage or a raised floor. As for wood for the roof, either use green oak or copper arsenic treated (equivelent) fencing timber for longevity. You can easily then use a marine ply or wriggly tin on the roof, or how about ipk sheeting then turf the top?

The Norwegians did this alot during the war...(Look at Ray Mears episodes).

It will take you ages to build and someone will eventually see you taking stuff near your hideaway unless you do it at night.

 

[fishy1]

I built a dug in drystone lined shelter in a scree slope once in the cairngorms, it was pretty cool but took ages to build. I was a dyker for a couple of years so walling was no problem. I think you have to realise how much stone you are going to need will be huge, even for a low walled shelter. The foundationes need to be well footed and any revettment into the hill side needs to be well drained and footed too. I would use gravel in the floor for drainage or a raised floor. As for wood for the roof, either use green oak or copper arsenic treated (equivelent) fencing timber for longevity. You can easily then use a marine ply or wriggly tin on the roof, or how about ipk sheeting then turf the top?

The Norwegians did this alot during the war...(Look at Ray Mears episodes).

It will take you ages to build and someone will eventually see you taking stuff near your hideaway unless you do it at night.

Yeah, I know I'm going to need a fair bit of stone. Rough calculations were about 20 tonnes, and this is a pretty small sized shelter. Scree slopes I suppose would make it ideal, as you've got so much rock close, but there is a fair bit of rock near to my place too.
And I'll have a few friends helping me too, so I reckon we could easily shift 4tonnes into position a day. Obviously digging out a hole will take time too, but I think it's feasible.

Oak is not easy to get around there, there is a few trees, but not something I want to fell. If instead of the fence posts, I used big pieces of birch for example, would these rot pretty fast? I'm not bothered about getting more than 5 years out of this, and I want to minimise the costs.

The nearest path is about 2 miles away, and even 50 yards away you wouldn't see the location as it's steep.
By boat, you might glimpse it, but locating it would be a right hassle, and there aren't many boats.

I think I caught one of the norwegian mears programs before, might try and catch it again.

 

[The Cumbrian]

Have you thought about approaching by canoe? You'll be able to get about 500lbs of building materials, plus yourself and your camping kit into a typical 16' tripping canoe without overloading it, saving yourself many journeys, as well as being able to take some luxuries to make the evenings enjoyable after a hard days toil.

Cheers, Michael.

 

[Eric_Methven]

Fistly, is there any reason you cannot bring all the stuff you need in by open canoe, rather than abseil down the rocks?

Secondly, if you are building into the hillside that implies you will be moving soil, rather than hewing out solid rock. If you are moving soil out you need to consider land slippage at the back of the shelter whenever it rains. Water will move down your back wall and even if you protect it with plastic sheeting, it will over time start to collapse.

You'll need to build a back wall and side walls too. You should have a gap of at least a foot between the soil and the back and side walls, and fill this gap with pebbles so the rain can drain away before it erodes and collapses into your shelter. You should consider a timber frame from 4x2 timber, or cut logs about 4-5" in diameter, and attach 3/4" WBP plywood to the OUTSIDE of the frame. Imagine you are pouring concrete, you'll need reinforcement like that, but use gravel or pebbles instead of the concrete.

Use thick timbers for the roof and cover it with old carpet, soil and grass. It will weigh a lot when it gets wet, so make it stronger than you think you'll need. When putting it all together, consider using strapping to join the roofing joists to the wall supports. It's the stuff you can get from builder's merchants that is a roll of metal strap with holes every couple of inches. You just cut to length, fold it over the joist and nail it in place and also to the uprights. It saves cutting lapping joints into the timbers. It is galvanised so it won't rust. If you plant a living roof, you'll be able to plant strawberries, and other succulent fruits up there along the edges so you'll have fresh fruit at certain times of the year, and it'll help to feed the wildlife.

For the front, consider wattle and daub walls, and have the roof extend a couple of feet beyond the front to keep the rain off the daub so it doesn't wash out. You can camouflage the front by painting a mixture of natural yoghurt and honey on the daub then rubbing sphagnum moss on it. The spores will rub off and they will feed on the yoghurt culture and honey and grow very quickly. It should end up looking like a moss covered wall.

If you are close enough to the loch shore, consider bringing it all in by boat, it'll make life easier and you'll be able to move massive amounts of stuff. Two open canoes lashed together will carry a ton of gear plus two paddlers.

Just some stuff to think about.

Good luck with it though, and if you do start it, take some photos so we may all share.

Eric

 

[fishy1]

Fistly, is there any reason you cannot bring all the stuff you need in by open canoe, rather than abseil down the rocks?

Yes, it's far more fun.

Seriously though, that's a good idea, although I think the closest launching point would be about 5 miles, and it is often very windy. Might not use a canoe neccessarily, but I have a couple of wee row boats I'm building and they'd do the job.

I wondered about gaps, never thought about the problem of soil collapsing, which shows the value of asking on this forum. I might use sterling board instead of ply, as it's alot cheaper and I might even get it free. Alteratively, I might just split a few trees into boards and use them.

 

[Mike Ameling]

A book that might help you is called Shelters Shacks and Shanties. My copy is buried somewhere in the shelves/stacks, so I don't have the author's name or the isbn #. It was originally published in the early 1900's, but reprinted a few years ago. It has a lot of drawings and plans for many styles of simple country/backwoods/hunting shelters. And they involve logs, saplings, regular lumber, rocks with some above ground, some dugouts, and some bermed.

It does not have detailed plans or step-by-step construction, but would be a good "idea" book.

Hope this helps.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[Tengu]

what you have in mind seems to be a black house or even an underground house.

But these were built over the long term and used for years if not centuries.

can I visit if I ever come to scotland??

 

[sandbender]

A book that might help you is called Shelters Shacks and Shanties.

This one?

http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/sss_book.html

Sample chapter...

http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/sss_latches.html

 

[mr dazzler]

Birch is relatively light, easy to cut and split, BUT it goes spalty easily and isnt a species that will be durable especially if it's constantly damp. If it doesnt get good air ventilation it will go mouldy and spalty and then crumble away. Tanalised rail's and post's are good, you will certainly get 5 year's out of them (they will last 20-25 year's soemtiems) I just bought 2 cord's of firewood which was set out in the yard in measured bay's. They had tanalise'd rails on the floor which had settled and sunk into the damp soil/leafmould, the rails had been there at least a year yet they looked as if they had been put down only yesterday (no dampness or even staining) You dont need to wait for your wood to season, traditional vernacular structures always used fresh cut green wood (coppice and thinnings) for rafter's, stud's and so forth. Wet wood shrinks up to 15-20% of its width across the grain in extreme case's, but virtually nothing along the length. So a 2.4 meter 100x75 cut green could end up 2400x80x60. On rafters this isnt an issue, but if wood sharnk more along the length, 20% off a 5 meter rafter would quite likely bring the roof down Plus of course riven wood rafters are stronger (even if not perfectly straight), the cleaving follows the grain rather than disrupting it as a saw does (creating short grain weak spots that can fail under stress)

PS couldnt you do something with chestnut paling (fencing) as some sort of structural frame work? just a thought, chestnut is easy to get and very durable

 

[Mike Ameling]

This one?

http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/sss_book.html

Sample chapter...

http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/sss_latches.html

Yes, that's the book. And the author Beard was involved with starting up the Boy Scouts.

He event covers making up simple chairs, tables, bunks, shelves around your "cabin", and developing a spring to use for a water supply. Lots of great inspiration/ideas for people out in the woods/hills - from simple temporary camps to seasonal shelters on up to whole permanent cabins/houses.

It's a great "idea" book.

Just my humble ramblings - take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[EdS]

not wanting to dampen your fire as it where but have you considered the legal ramifications? Just so you don't end up in all sorts of trouble

Is it your land? Trespass?

If it is your land what about planning permission. Stone built therefore reguarded as a permanent structure.

 

[mr dazzler]

I must admit that thought ocurred to me as well. Reminds me of the man in wales whose self build home was spotted by local council satellite or spy plane and they tried to force him to demolish it.

 

[fishy1]

I must admit that thought ocurred to me as well. Reminds me of the man in wales whose self build home was spotted by local council satellite or spy plane and they tried to force him to demolish it.

Although a good point, FC have actually given me permission provided it meets the specs. That's why it's discreet etc.

 

[Risclean]

All the old croft houses in my neck of the wood were built with a clay "mortar". It's not really mortar, more like dry stone building with clay in between the stones. It keeps the wind out, breathes and doesn't wash out.

I've dismantled several old ruins to get stone for dyking. Many houses would have been lime pointed originally, but that's not likely to be necessary for your purposes.

You can strengthen the roof by putting bolts halfway up the wall then looping wire tie downs from the rafters. Mild steel fencing wire works fine. Put a block of wood between the wall and the wire, then twist the two strands of wirearound each other.

 

[John Fenna]

My house has mud between the stones - it has stood up for well over 100 years....

 

[Mungo]

Yes, that's the book. And the author Beard was involved with starting up the Boy Scouts.

He event covers making up simple chairs, tables, bunks, shelves around your "cabin", and developing a spring to use for a water supply. Lots of great inspiration/ideas for people out in the woods/hills - from simple temporary camps to seasonal shelters on up to whole permanent cabins/houses.

It's a great "idea" book.

Just my humble ramblings - take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

You can poke around a bit more on this Google Books page

Also search about for 'bushcraft' etc... on the Google Books site - terrific resource, you never know what you'll find!

Cheers,

Mungo