Braiding help needed

[Buckshot]

I need some help in how to braid a baldrick style strap for my knife.

I've got hold of some leather (a full side of cow because I'm going to make some moccasins) and I want to cut some so I can braid it.
The plan I have is to have a flat section to go on my shoulder and spread the weight (probably about 2 inchs wide), as I have a whole piece of leather I think i'll have this piece as a yoke (solid) rather than platting it. As the leather comes down my sides I want to turn it into a round braid which will connect to the sheath in some way (I have some ideas for that).
The questions i have are:

How do I go from a flat yoke to a round braid? The David Morgan book only talks about the other way round. Is it best to do a section of flat first and then take into round? And exactly how do you do that? Is it a just a case of taking the outside laces round the back as you would do in a normal round braid or is there more to it?

Also is it possible to reduce the amount of laces in a round braid? If the yoke is 2 inchs wide and I'm using 1/8th inch laces, that means I've got 16 laces to deal with. If I can reduce that a bit it would make things a lot easier. In the same way is it possible to increase the number of laces if I want to ? Or would it be better/ possible to use some of the laces from the yoke as the core for the round braid and use the remainder to braid around them?

I hope these questions make sense and I realise it's more difficult to explain than to do (perhaps) but there are some really good braiders out there and it would be good to have it explained.

Thanks a lot all :biggthump

Mark

 

[grumit]

try outdoors magazine in the woodcraft and camping part there is a two part how to braid thread really good done by swert :wave:

 

[mal]

carnt help at all but i would love to see the finished article

 

[Stew]

Mark,

You want to speak to Schwert. Have you seen his 6-Plait Braid NeckCord before? It kinda covers what you ant to do.

Schwert is very good at braiding and if you look around at OMF, you'll see more of his work. You should be able to find the completed neck sheath there too.

Hope that helps.

 

[tenbears10]

Mark,

You want to speak to Schwert. Have you seen his 6-Plait Braid NeckCord before? It kinda covers what you ant to do.

Schwert is very good at braiding and if you look around at OMF, you'll see more of his work. You should be able to find the completed neck sheath there too.

Hope that helps.

That is exactly what I was going to suggest. Schwerts tutorial is exactly what you need. I think 16 strand is too much for the flat section it won't need to be that wide. Give Schwert a shout and he willl help with any problems you run it to.

Are you cutting the lace by hand? if so get one of the cutters David Morgan has in his book to keep a standard thickness (aparently david morgan does it just by hand with his thumb as the only guide).

Let us see the results.

Bill

 

[Buckshot]

Thanks guys, I was kinda hoping that Schwert would contribute here, perhaps he hasn't seen it yet.

The link covers some of the questions but I'm still wondering about adding and removing laces...

I'll have to give it some nore thought....

Cheers :You_Rock_

Mark

 

[ESpy]

You could always cut your laces with a central yoke, as decribed in David Morgan's book. Just yoke them in pairs, then you'll have 8 wide strands for the flat braid, and 16 for the round.

 

[Buckshot]

I was planning on a central yoke. The bit that goes round my neck and shoulder will be solid (unless I decide to get really adventerous :shock: ), the vertical pieces and then going onto the sheath itself will be braided.

I kinda like the idea of it all braided but think that might be beyond my skills/ patience at the moment...

I'll post a picture when it's done.

Cheers

Mark

 

[Schwert]

Sorry I missed this last week.

16-plait is doable, but I would probably not go more than 12 using wider lace to get the 2" strap. An advantage to plaiting the whole thing, in my view, is the way the flat strap will conform over time to your shoulder and it will have greater friction to hold it in place. The central yoke will be easier to cut, but the strings will have to be long enough to braid so think carefully before you cut it out.

Going from flat to round is simplicity itself. The 6-plait link above just becomes a bit more complex with 12 strings, but the transformation should be relatively easy...I have never done it, but with 6 strings on a side you can go under 3, over 3 on both sides starting with the outside string working from flat to round. This should work rather well, just take it slow and braid snug but not tight until you get all strings worked in.

You could cut tapered strings....wide in the middle tapering down and do the whole thing say with eight thongs. This would be a hard set to cut, but would work out great....just have to make sure they are long enough. Say 2X longer than finished product.

Dropping strings is pretty simple. You will take an outer string in to the centre and then not work it anymore. I usually cut a taper in it and leave it a few inches long. When you decide to drop...drop a pair of strings. Take the outer string from both sides, bring them around to their center and then cut and taper them. From then on just ignore them. Work around them a string from both sides and they should end up in the core of the braid. If you drop, a pair from 8 to 6 or 12 to 10 your pattern will change. If you are working 8 strings and drop to 6, you were probably braiding under 4 over 4....this will have to change so you are under 2 over 1 on one side and over 2 under 1 on the other. If the number of strings is not divisable by 4 you must have an unsymmetrical pattern to make it work nicely. Take some care in these transitions, but do not worry too much, just take it slow.

Have fun and I cannot wait to see how this works out.

 

[tenbears10]

Schwert you make it sound so easy ):

Bill

 

[Stew]

Schwert you make it sound so easy ):

Bill

Quite! I was trying to visualise it in my head as I read what he said and it's taken me a few re-reads to get it!!

It would be far easier if I had some cord in my hands, I'm sure.

 

[Schwert]

It is way way easier to do the braid than to try and type how it goes. Most books suffer from this and I think most people think it would be way to hard to do given how hard it is to understand the text.

Best thing would be to take 8 strings or 12 strings and try a flat braid to round transition. Once you see how easy that is drop two strings and then master that easy move. Start with 2' strings and just practice the moves...do not try and think them out...I think you will "see" them once the strings are hanging and the braid is in progress.

Then go to the hide and cut your strings. If I had a hide I would cut a 3 foot string of 1/8", then widen the cut to 1/4" for 2 feet, then narrow back to 1/8" for 3 feet. Do this for 8 strings and braid the whole thing starting at the middle. Make the transitions from 1/8 to 1/4 short....say 6". You can use a guide to cut the 1/8 and 1/4 sections and hand cut the tapered transitions.

Start braiding in the exact middle and once you have what you consider enough flat to make half the shoulder strap, stop and do enough for the other side. Then either continue or recut the transition zones and start in with round braid. The tapered sections will look stunning in the transition.

If I was doing this with 8 strings I would not drop any of them. Just go 8-Plait flat to round all the way to the sheath. 8-plait in 3mm thin leather is a nice stout thong but not too fat. If you decide to drop some strings complete the tapered transition and braid for a couple of inches before you drop them to keep the whole thing looking nicely tapered without steps.

I know if I did this it would have plenty of flaws, but I bet it would work like a dream and last forever. I almost want to try it....almost. ):

Show us your sheath too if you can. I am interested in how you may join it...permanent or removable?

 

[Buckshot]

Thanks Schwert, there are some brilliant ideas there. :You_Rock_
The tapered laces is a great one, and I can just introduce a core when I go to round. I'm going to try a diamond pattern, rather than 4 seam work. I know it will take longer but I'm not planning on rushing this anyway.

I may even try to use different coloured leather to give a little contrast, I haven't compared the thickness of the two types yet so it may not work but...

When I get to the sheath I was hoping to change back to flat, do a complete circle all the way round the sheath and then work the free ends into the pattern. I may then work the free ends down below (lower, towards the end of the sheath) the flat, go to a round braid hanging down behind the sheath so I can tuck that into my belt so it won't fall forward.
I was trying to think of a way I could get both ends of the strap to work like this but I may have to settle with the other end, still in round, threading through the flat and then do a termination knot to stop it pulling out again.

And then finally a simple round braid hanging down from the bottom of the sheath for decoration (I can also tuck this into my belt if I want to as I do at present)

The sheath I'll be using is the standard woodlore neck sheath.

Phew, I see what you mean about it being difficult to explain Schwert. :yikes:

Thanks again to all, great ideas.

I've nearly finished my moccs now so this is the next project... I'll let you know how I get on. :shock:

Cheers

Mark

 

[Buckshot]

P.S.
The sheath I'll be working with is the one in the gallery, not a brilliant photo but I'm sure you get the idea.

I should have asked about adding strings back in. Is it 'easy' to do that as well?

Cheers

Mark

 

[Schwert]

That sounds like a good plan. Single diamond is very time intensive. It looks great and adds some complexity...especially if you are working in 8+ stings, but it will look great.

Adding strings back in is similar to dropping them. Cut a taper and stuff the strings up into the middle of the braid, then position them and start working them into the rotation. On the first round or 2 take it easy setting them, but after you get going they will snug in and stay just fine. After I position the added strings in place I usually pinch the braid above with a clothes pin to hold them in place until I get them braided in.

I like the idea of leaving thongs hanging from the sheath to belt tuck. Even though a Baldric carry swings less than neck, this an excellent idea...even if it only turns out to be decorative.

Contrasting colors in single diamond should be stunning. 4-seam 2-colour work does not always look as nice. If you are using black and tan lace, heavily greased strings tend to bleed color across. I usually grease these less heavily and let them completely dry before braiding....a bit less easy to braid dry, but the colours do not muddle as much.

I cannot wait to see this one. If you can shoot some images of the progress...this would make a super article.

 

[Buckshot]

Thanks again Schwert, I have a feeling I'll be picking your brains some more before this project is finished...

I'll try the various moves before I start to make sure I'm happy with them.

One thing I'm not happy with is the termination knots. I tried the crown and wall knot and it worked - sort of. It's not as pretty or as snug as I'd like. I followed your instructions on one of your other threads but it's nowhere near as nice as yours. I couldn't figure out what I'd done wrong.

The other knot I'm having trouble with is the cover knot. I followed the instructions in David Morgan's book and on your thread but I still get confused. I've tried it several times but nothing...

I'll try both again and see what happens.

Cheers

Mark