Atlatl

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dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Since we've been talking about some stone age hunting tools in the slings thread, I thought I might post some pictures of an atlatl I have made for my teenage son for Christmas.

Here is the thrower -- the grip is deerskin, so is the braided wrist loop, the bannerstone is carved marble, the hook is antler, all bound with artificial sinew. Oh, the wood is California Juniper -- a great, light and strong wood. It makes a decent bow, too...)

atlatl-1.jpg


The darts I make of oak dowels with a scarfed joint in them -- learned the trick a while back on paleoplanet ( http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/ ) and it's great. Since they're six feet long, I'm only showing the rear....

a_dart_tail.jpg


and the point...

a_dart_tip.jpg


A few words about the point... I often use steel trade points for the arrow head and yes, I knap quite a few too, but metal goes on all my field atlatl darts. However, I don't use trade points much now because the copper pipe fitting and sharpened cold rolled steel approach (also snagged from Paleoplanet) is fantastic. I've got to say it makes the darts last forever and hit REALLY hard.

I always keep three of these copper/steel and four trade points in my possibles bag at all times so that, if faced with a survival situation I've got good quality points at my disposal. Only adds a couple of ounces to the weight.

When you throw an atlatl dart into a stump with the copper/steel tips you can readily see why ancients could bring down even wooly mammoths with these.

The really cool thing is making simple atlatls in the wild is a snap and is lots of fun at night around the fire.
 

wicca

Native
Oct 19, 2008
1,065
34
South Coast
Dogwood, forgive my ignorance but I take it that device is similar to the spear thrower used by Australian Aborigines? I've seen those in use and I recall that the 'body' of those appeared quite wide and the spear lay on a concave surface. I was stunned by the impact of the spear (steel point) he pieced an oil drum with it!! What's the Bannerstone's purpose?
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Yes, the atlatl and the spear thrower you saw in Australia are the same thing. The atlatl sometimes is wide like the aborigines use (still hunt with them today!) or much more slender like the ones I make, which are based on American Indian designs.

The atlatl and the sling both vie for being the first distance weapon (other than rocks, spears were used for thusting and not throwing, the thinking goes...) people created. Atlatls have been found everywhere in the world. It is not clear whether Neanderthals used them, however Cro-Magnon did.

Interestingly, the Aztecs used atlatls against the Spanish conquistadors and they could put darts through armor.

And yes, I've thrown my darts through steel drums too -- amazing force.

The bannerstone is a weight that you sometimes find on lighter atlatls. You don't NEED it, because the added leverage of the length atlatl is enough. However, a little light weight can be useful for tuning the handling of the throw.

Incidentally, you'll sometimes find drilled bannerstones that people propose as weights. These are pretty controversial -- most people who actually *use* atlatls think the drilled bannerstones are actually used for arrow making. Lashed banner stones, though, are great light weights.

(Drilled bannerstones have been found all over the world and anthropologists are torn about their use. The *appear* closely related to atlatl use or construction, but some have said they might be used for weaving or cordage...)

There you go, more than you EVER wanted to know!

Dogwood, forgive my ignorance but I take it that device is similar to the spear thrower used by Australian Aborigines? I've seen those in use and I recall that the 'body' of those appeared quite wide and the spear lay on a concave surface. I was stunned by the impact of the spear (steel point) he pieced an oil drum with it!! What's the Bannerstone's purpose?
 

BossCat

Tenderfoot
Dec 11, 2008
65
0
67
Scotland
Ah Dogwood,

Yet once more you take me back to my youth with your Atlatl. We used to call them Throwing Arrows. Just a simple arrow with a small notch nicked just below the flights. A piece of string with a knot in it would be wraped around the arrow with the knot sitting it the notch and the string overlapping the knot.
The string was then wraped around your hand and pulled tight along the length of the arrow. Then it was time to let fly.

Accuracy had to be mastered but you could easily stick an arrow into a tree up to an 1in.

Armed with our Gutty's & Throwing Arrows us kids would have given Rambo a run for his money :D

Tom
 

wicca

Native
Oct 19, 2008
1,065
34
South Coast
Thanks Dogwood, that's something else I've learned, I had never heard of the Atlatl before and didn't know spear throwers were used in the Americas. Those arrows Bosscat is talking about, for some reason we always referred to as 'Dutch Arrows,' no idea why, but the "assisted launch" with the string certainly made them fly a lot further than throwing them just like a small spear.
 

BossCat

Tenderfoot
Dec 11, 2008
65
0
67
Scotland
no idea why, but the "assisted launch" with the string certainly made them fly a lot further than throwing them just like a small spear.

I think it may have to do with the pull and twisting of the arrow put on by the string?

Tom
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
The use of the string in the devices you guys are talking about -- I'd love to see an image of it if you come across one! -- makes it different than the atlatl, which was always just stick and dart (spear).

I'm fascinated by the device you guys are talking about -- I'm going to poke around on the net to see if I can find some images of it.
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
I think it may have to do with the pull and twisting of the arrow put on by the string?

Tom

I suppose it works on a similar principle to the trebuchet, where the weight drops, the arm swings forward and then the sling whips the stone on its travels with much greater force due to the seperate movement of the parts all working in sync.
 

wicca

Native
Oct 19, 2008
1,065
34
South Coast
Dogwood, have a look at a website called absolute astronomy.com (I don't know how to do the link properly) Look under Swiss Arrow. Apparently what I used to call Dutch arrows are also called Yorkshire Arrows, and Dogwood called them throwing arrows. I recall someone telling me years ago that where bows and other personal weapons were banned by occupying forces, ie: Switzerland when under Austrian rule, Holland under the Spanish, the locals developed this method of throwing an arrow for a considerable distance...with a piece of string!! I've no idea if that is true or not. The thing that spoils that story is the Yorkshire arrow bit, those buggers are so stubborn they would carry weapons anyway..:lmao: :lmao:
 

BossCat

Tenderfoot
Dec 11, 2008
65
0
67
Scotland
A Swiss arrow, more commonly called a Dutch arrow, but also a Yorkshire arrow, or a Gypsy arrow is similar to a standard arrowArrow

An arrow is a pointed projectile that is shot with a bow....
, with the addition of a small notch close to the fletchingFletching

Fletching is the ancient art of aerodynamically stabilizing arrows from materials such as feathers or modern plastics....
.

Swiss arrows, unlike standard arrows, are thrown rather than shot from a bowBow (weapon)

A bow is a weapon that shoots arrows powered by the elasticity of the bow....
, and in this sense are more accurately described as dartsDart (missile)

Darts are missile weapons, designed to fly such that a sharp, often weighted point will strike first....
than arrows.

The arrow shaft is made from wood, and generations of British schoolboys have found that 18 inch (~45cm) green garden canes are perfect for the job, being straight and lightweight. A slit is cut at one end to take a pair of card flights, and the other end is given a point. An all-important notch is cut into the shaft, just below the flights. After the flights are inserted, the open end of the slit is closed with string or a rubber band to prevent the flights from falling out.

To launch the arrow, the thrower uses a length of string that is longer than the length of the arrow itself. A knot is tied in one end of the string, and this is placed into the notch in the arrow shaft. The rest of the string is then passed around the shaft once, and is made to align over and above the knot before being stretched down to the point end of the arrow. The string is tightened, ensuring that the knotted end stays within the notch, and the surplus is wound around the thrower's throwing hand. The throwing hand with the string wound around it should be near the point end of the arrow, with the thrower able to easily grip the end.

The arrow is then held behind the thrower, with the string taut. The throwing arm should be as fully extended as possible, enabling the arrow to be thrown like a javelinJavelin throw

The javelin throw is an athletics throwing event where the object to be thrown is the javelin, a spear-like object made of ...
, but held much closer to the tip. Following through with the throwing hand allows the string to provide additional forward force on the arrow, extending the length and reach of the thrower's arm, in a fashion similar to a slingSling (weapon)

A sling is a projectile weapon typically used to throw a blunt missile such as a stone....
. A considerable distance can be achieved.


I can see me having to do another diagram :D

Tom
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Thanks for the additional info -- I couldn't find an image of it, but the Wikipedia description and a video of a guy throwing one gave me idea how they work.

I've got to make some arrows next week anyway, so maybe I'll make a specific arrow to try this out...

Question: from the description, it sounds like this would work better if the swiss arrow had more weight than a typical arrow (more mass accelerating during the throw...) is this the case or did you use light arrows as you would have with a bow?


A Swiss arrow, more commonly called a Dutch arrow, but also a Yorkshire arrow, or a Gypsy arrow is similar to a standard arrowArrow
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,141
88
W. Yorkshire
A heavier arrow would have more down range impact than a lighter one and it wouldn't decelerate as fast or be affected by the wind as much. Also any thrown weapon is more effective with the most weight one third of the way up the shaft and a lighter point (javelin shaped) than one with a straight shaft and a heavy point. This is because the weight will drive the point deeper from behind and it is more stable being better balanced than front heavy.

More like a throwing spear than an arrow (throwing spears never needed flights for stability)
 

wicca

Native
Oct 19, 2008
1,065
34
South Coast
As kids Dogwood, We used to buy a bundle of bamboo canes from the garden shop. We would split the narrow end and wedge a cardboard flight in, then bind above and below to stop further splitting. The heavier end we would weight with either a short piece of copper pipe, a twist of lead roof flashing or anything we could pinch off the local metal scrap heap. I seem to recall the canes were about 3 feet in length. We always had contests for distance throws rather than 'target' type throwing, probably because the bamboos would only take so many hard impacts before splitting. It was always who could throw the furthest.:D :D
 
That's some fine work there dogwood ;)

I'd like to see some more detail on the scarf joints if possible please?

I have two atlatls from thunderbirdatlatl.com for Christmas gifts - one for me and one for the Mrs.

I wrote a breif tutorial on making a survival atlatl for another fourm early last year and posted it up on BCUK back last July - http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23006&highlight=atl-atl

Cheers,

Phil.
 

BossCat

Tenderfoot
Dec 11, 2008
65
0
67
Scotland
THE THROWING ARROW

Ok Dogwood here we go. Once again not having the materials (use your imagination :D) Arrow etc so I have used a piece of dowel with a panel pin in the end to substitute as the arrow and point.

THE NOTCH.
Make a small notch just below the flight end of the arrow like so...

To the left as you look at pic being the flight end
notch1.jpg


notch2.jpg


STRING.
Tie a simple knot in a piece of string or bootlace as seen here and place the knot into the notch like so...
knot1.jpg


Now wrap the string around the shaft once and overlap the knot, pull string along the shaft of the arrow. The pull & overlap on the string keeps the knot securly seated in the notch.
knot2.jpg


Now while keeping the knot in the notch with one hand wrap any spare string around your throwing hand. If done correctly you should have something resembling this.
stringpull.jpg


This how its held and thrown. You may have seen this lad on youtube demostrating a throw? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NZjW5qJWyMM
His hand looks way to far up the shaft and he has a huge arrow but I think you get this idea?
BTW....we used to wrap a small piece of lead just above the arrowhead to give the arrow a bit more weight.

Tom ;)
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
That's a great tutorial and it's almost exactly how I go about making atlatls in the wild.

It's a fine thing to do at night while sitting around the fire (which is handy for straightening the darts anyway..)

And I agree completely about the atlatl's use as a survival tool. It's a hunting tool with at least 30,000 years of success -- right to the current day. Can't argue with that.

(Here in Arkansas in the US, you can legally hunt deer and hogs with atlatls and there are organized hunts. As you know, they hit so hard people routinely bring down 400 lbs (about 170kg) hogs with a single dart.. )

I make bows as well but if I found myself in a situation where I had to make a tool to survive, it would be the atlatl first for sure.

Plus, they make *fantastic* fishing spears.

That's some fine work there dogwood ;)

I'd like to see some more detail on the scarf joints if possible please?

I have two atlatls from thunderbirdatlatl.com for Christmas gifts - one for me and one for the Mrs.

I wrote a breif tutorial on making a survival atlatl for another fourm early last year and posted it up on BCUK back last July - http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23006&highlight=atl-atl

Cheers,

Phil.
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
That is so neat!

I'm making one next week for sure. Thanks for the lesson!

THE THROWING ARROW

Ok Dogwood here we go. Once again not having the materials (use your imagination :D) Arrow etc so I have used a piece of dowel with a panel pin in the end to substitute as the arrow and point.
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Here are some great tutorials on scarf joints -- the first demonstrating on a fire drill

http://www.primitiveways.com/scarfng_a_fire_spindle.html

And here is one for an atlatl dart:

http://www.primitiveways.com/scarfing_and_tips.html

I've found that scarf joints are really strong -- I can put my atlatl darts through the door of a junked car easily without breaking the dart. I use 5/8 inch oak dowels for my darts, with a scarf joint in the middle it gives me a nice flexible 6 foot dart with some mass behind it. I wrap the joint first in a bit of brown paper bag, then in artificial sinew.

I don't think I'm doing any atlatl darts next week (I'm concentrating on arrows and, as a result of BossCat's inspiration, a swiss arrow ) but the next time I do some, I'll photograph the procees and post a tutorial.

There are loads of photos on the links above though. Note that he's made a jig -- if you do a lot of them it helps to make your own jig. In the wild, though, your knife will do to carve the joint...

That's some fine work there dogwood ;)

I'd like to see some more detail on the scarf joints if possible please?
 

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