4x4's to pay £1800pa road tax...

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falling rain

Native
Oct 17, 2003
1,737
29
Woodbury Devon
Ridiculous in my opinion. Some people need a 4X4 for there jobs. Will the forestry workers, game keepers farmers etc be exempt from this if it goes through? I must admit there are an awful lot of people driving them now for the school run. I think they've taken over from the Volvo estates for that one :rolleyes:
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
Yet another stealth tax, which the government are good at. All it will do is force me (and those like me) to charge more money from the customers. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.........
 

Spacemonkey

Native
May 8, 2005
1,354
9
48
Llamaville.
www.jasperfforde.com
Agree with LS.. After Janet Street Porter and her cronies got green laning more or less banned from everything bar BOATS I was expecting a glut of cheap XR400 trail bikes for sale (I'm in WIltshire which is FULL of lovely long BOATS..) but sadly not...

They're also on about lowering Motorway speed limits. Yeah, cos that will make a difference... Peopel will do the same speeds, but the old bill will just be able to fine more for speeding, but that's not the plan surely..? Sorry, getting political again, so I'm off....
 

useless

Tenderfoot
Oct 20, 2005
92
2
50
Hampshire, UK
I think they are trying to focus people on the wrong argument, as is often the way.

If they get this tax on 4x4's, they will then focus on some other vehicle (Luxury car market? Limo' hire?). All the while the real options for longer term sustainability are being overlooked because they would cost a lot of money in the short term. I'd love to fill my rook with PV cells, but the deal is too dodgy in the short term, let alone the long term.

Bless 'em and their ways
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
Good! About Time Too!

CUE: Fatuous Arguement about how 'Your' 4 x 4 is Essential for pulling Tree Stumps (on one Afternoon a Week) while Ignoring the other Six and a Half Days when you just use it to Commute, or go to Sainso's in.

CUE: Fatuous Arguement about how 'Your' 4 x 4 runs on Bio-Diesel or LPG - As if this Somehow Reverses the Pollution effects of Hauling Several Unnesscary Tons of Metal from A to B, Every Time One or Two Humans need to move a few Miles.

Everyone Must Change Their Ways Except You Personally! :cool:
 

mark a.

Settler
Jul 25, 2005
540
4
Surrey
Let's hope that someone, somewhere in that there government will laugh at the report and file it in the bin where it belongs.
 

Spacemonkey

Native
May 8, 2005
1,354
9
48
Llamaville.
www.jasperfforde.com
bogflogger said:
Good! About Time Too!

CUE: Fatuous Arguement about how 'Your' 4 x 4 is Essential for pulling Tree Stumps (on one Afternoon a Week) while Ignoring the other Six and a Half Days when you just use it to Commute, or go to Sainso's in.

CUE: Fatuous Arguement about how 'Your' 4 x 4 runs on Bio-Diesel or LPG - As if this Somehow Reverses the Pollution effects of Hauling Several Unnesscary Tons of Metal from A to B, Every Time One or Two Humans need to move a few Miles.

Everyone Must Change Their Ways Except You Personally! :cool:
...and you spend all day riding miles and miles around London carving up other road users at silly speeds delivering pointless packages on an emission free motorbike, non? :argue: :) (obligatory smilie to make everyone feel happy again)
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
Not for the last Six Years I Haven't.

Plus,The largest Bike I Worked was a BMW 850cc and weighed just over 500lb.

As opposed to several Tons of Chassis, Bodywork, Glass, Ancillary Motors, etc,etc, All requiring an engine of 2+ Litres to haul All this Dead Weight - with consequent increases in pollution.

I Also doubt wether the Transplant Surgeon Waiting at the OR Table for the Kidney I was delivering, or the Patient, thought my job was pointless.

No Contest Really. :cool:
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
31
55
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
In fairness, if the argument is carbon pollution, then the real figures are mpg and annual mileage. If you are gonna levvy a tax againt high polluting vehicles, then that tax should be levvied against all vehicles which do less than the set mpg (I think the figure bandied about is 25mpg).

Why single out one particular style of vehicle? There are lots of old jags and porches out there that suck fuel and are far worse for the environment than many 4x4's.

Equally, it isnt just mpg's, it's the amount of miles you actually do.

If I do 5,000 miles a year and you do 20,000 miles a year, and both vehicles do 25mpg, you are shoving 4x the carbon into the environment than I am. If I own a 4x4 and you own a jag, then I'm gonna be paying a carbon tax for your pollution. Surely it's the amount of miles that should be taxed (as well as the vehicles efficiency), rather than just the "style" of vehicle?

What about a fairer solution...

How about each and every vehicle on the road being put into an emmisions banding, based on the g of CO2 it puts out per mile, then when the vehicle is MOT'd, the mileage is recoded and DVLC send you a 'carbon bill', based on the recorded mileage of the vehicle x the CO2 banding it falls into.

That way high mileage, high polluting vehicles would be hit hardest (regardless of style/make/model) and low mileage drivers running efficient vehicles would pay the least ...even nothing in some cases.
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
That's Fair Enough!

Just to make my position clear, I do not hate 4 x 4's provided they are actually being used for their intended purpose IE: Rural Workhorses.

My Issue is with the 98% that are nothing more than "Lifestyle Accessories" :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: that spend most of their running time, Belching out Pollution whilst stuck in Gridlock, with only One Occupant.

Oh, and Audis, BMW's, Ford's, Mercedes, Vauxhall's.....and.....Volvo's.....And.......... :p
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
31
55
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
bogflogger said:
That's Fair Enough!

Just to make my position clear, I do not hate 4 x 4's provided they are actually being used for their intended purpose IE: Rural Workhorses.

My Issue is with the 98% that are nothing more than "Lifestyle Accessories" :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: that spend most of their running time, Belching out Pollution whilst stuck in Gridlock, with only One Occupant.

Oh, and Audis, BMW's, Ford's, Mercedes, Vauxhall's.....and.....Volvo's.....And.......... :p
That's the point, yes they are lifestyle accessories for 95% of owners. But so what?

The key issues are annual mileage and mpg (or gCO2 per mile). If your 4x4 is relatively efficient and your annual mileage is low, then you as an individual are a low carbon polluter, lifestyle choice or not.

The mom-trucks that do 50 miles a week taking the kids to school and going to sainsbury's are not the problem. They are low carbon polluters. The problem is those 2.0 litre rep mobiles, that screech up the M6 at 95mph, doing 70,000 miles a year with one person in the driving seat. Those people put 10x the carbon into the environment than the mom trucks.

I do agree though, that old series Landies are a poor choice for the environment, unless you really, really, really, genuinely need one. I often hear of them doing 20mpg or less.

Still, the important figure is how many miles you do. If you are a very low mileage individual, you can afford some lattitude in your vehicle (and lifestyle) choice. If you are a high mileage individual, then you are a high polluter by definition, and you should be under financial pressure to make sure those high miles are done in a vehicle which pollutes as little as possible. I'd like to see company reps driving nissan micra's.

You could own a lamourghini countach that does 6mpg, but if you only do 50 miles are year in it, you are a low polluter.

Yes, 4x4's are, on the whole, not very environmentally friendly. But the key issue is not the vehicle itself, but how it's used. Based on that simple truth, I dont think the vehicle alone should be taxed, but instead tax a combination of the vehicle, plus how a person uses it.
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
I Can see the logic of what you are saying Martyn.

I Can also see that most people have an Obsessional Affair with what is After All, Nothing but a Steel Box on Wheels, yet the "From my Cold Dead Hands" Mentality, seems to Rule Most Peoples Ideas on Change or Downsizing Vehicles.

Therefore, the Only way to get People Out of "Status" Cars (not just 4 x 4's) is to make it HURT to Run One.

Also, I Do Find it Difficult to buy into this idea of "Trading" in Pollution Credits, it is Not a Currency.

Basically, you are either Polluting (Running ANY Vehicle) or you are Not (This Might Seem Simplistic, But it IS the Bottom Line).

The Problem with all the "Life Cycle" Analysis and "Hair Splitting" is that it Always Ignores This Basic Fact, in the Covouted Mental Gymnastics Involved in Trying to Prove that Black, is in Fact, White.

I have even seen (Apparently Serious) attempts to prove that the Cycle Industry is a Monster, Devouring the Earth's Resources and leaving a trail of Destruction and Pollution in it's Wake.

I Gave up Listening to all this "Greenwash" after reading Far too much of this Arrant Nonsense, usually just produced as Propoganda to Justify the Actions of one particular "Special Interest" group or another.
 

wingstoo

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 12, 2005
2,271
38
South Marches
It doesn't really matter anymore as it was on the BBC news last night that the Government had REJECTED the proposal...


LS
 

sparks

Tenderfoot
Aug 14, 2005
92
1
....................
this was my 4x4 untill a prat in a white van overtuck on a blind corner.

if i had been in a small car what would have happend?

i live in cumbria not in a big city and i understand the problems 4x4s course in the city but why should we all be branded status symbol drivers.
a 4x4 is the most practicull thing for me to have.
 

wingstoo

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 12, 2005
2,271
38
South Marches
Hi Sparks,


Haven't you had that ding knocked out yet...If it wasn't for the type of vehicle you would be playing a harp by now...

Have you done the guy for personal injury...?

LS
 

wingstoo

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 12, 2005
2,271
38
South Marches
bogflogger said:
HOORAY........Go and pump a few Hundred Litres of Poison into the Atmosphere to Celebrate! :cool:
Nah, lets not, lets get them all gas converted so we have less...And use them only when required...

LS