What is best for environmental reasons?

[Paul_B]

Climate change is an issue and I'm sure many people on here think about ways of reducing impact. My family is the same. Despite this we still feel the need to keep a motorised vehicle for family transport and holiday use. Money and preferred criteria don't easily allow for real environmental action, but what is the best of a bad set of options?

Buy the most environmental vehicle that suits our needs and run out for as long as possible? Buy an older vehicle to run it for a short a time as possible with a view of then being able to afford a more environmental vehicle?

The other issue is LEZ and ULEZs. A cheap vehicle is LEZ compliant but no chance of ULEZ compliance. It might be possible that we can afford a ULEZ compliant vehicle, slim chance though. We live in a small, semi rural town and work in a nearby, small city. We are unlikely to drive to London, Manchester or other big city. But our worry is ULEZs are going to become more common, possibly even in rural areas. I have heard of a ULEZ in a French national park. I couldn't cope with not driving into the lakes or Yorkshire dales.

Anyone got a crystal ball? We're looking at a van (swb vivaro or similar). There are no petrol vans only diesel and very expensive electric that's out of our budget. We could afford a 1.6L diesel that's less polluting than a 2.0L model. But they're not ULEZ only LEZ compliant. Old and replace sooner or new as we can get and keep running longer?

Will electric become a decent secondhand option in vans for personal use? That's campervan conversion? I'm guessing not for at least 10 years possibly longer.

 

[Janne]

I would say - buy a vehicle, as new as possible, maintain it well, be gentle to it and run it to the ground.

The majority of vehicles are equally environment friendly.

 

[firedfromthecircus]

I would say - buy a vehicle, as new as possible, maintain it well, be gentle to it and run it to the ground.

Is this even an option nowadays?
My understanding is that modern vehicles have so much electronic equipment that risks failure before major component assemblies, and then become uneconomically repairable. Happy to be corrected if I am mistaken.

 

[Janne]

Replacing sensors or computers is expensive, but not ridiculously so.

I think I know exactly what you refer to.
I have heard this many times: if a repair is approaching or exceeding the value of the car - scrap the car.
But if that repair makes it fully functional until next repair, what is wrong with that?
Of course we have to decide what our limit for cost of repairs or amount of wotk is!

 

[Paul_B]

What are the implications over ULEZ? Will a car or van (most likely diesel and not ULEZ compliant) become obsolete or unusable because towns adopt low emissions zones that the vehicle can't go into? Plus imagine our most beautiful areas becoming an ULEZ no go zone for older vehicles. Is that likely in the UK and Europe?

My preference is a new as possible. For example our budget is just possible to get new shape /model vivaro/trafic with the 1.6L engine. Similar power to the older 2 litre engine but higher top speed and 0-60mph time yet still lower co2 and other pollutant levels. That's about 2015.

In 2016 and newer there's even ULEZ compliant euro 6 vans just at our top end (if we forget about a few things in the first stage of conversion.

I've been recommended to get a cheaper, older van because we're on a cusp of a change. UK gov days electric or hybrid by 2040 but the car brands are looking at 2030 for that as are other European nations.

Indeed all car / van brands are getting heavily into full electric vehicles. There's vans out there with 250 mile ranges now. That's getting into realistic distances with the fast charging points.

I know of one large, national van operator that's got all London vans a electric and the next fleet purchase will be all electric across the UK. They're getting their last ICE nationwide fleet of vans converted for use now. Three or four years it's electric.

That'll soon lead to secondhand evs in van format. The question is how will depreciation and battery replacement costs feed into the secondhand electric van market? How long would we run a 5 year old van for? Another 10 years? Could that be long enough to be able to afford an eV?

With climate change becoming more high priority, LEZ/ULEZ expansion and a definite manufacturer push into full EVs it seems to me that we're really into a new era of vehicles pushing through. How long before plain EVs become unacceptable or no longer viable without paying to use in towns and cities?

 

[Janne]

Well, if they factor in the environmental cost of the batteries, we would all be using Petrol/Diesel......

It is all about Fashionable Politics. And the councils making money off the environmental charges, is it not?

Diesel was the 'fuel of the future' some years ago. Now it is horrible. Kills people ....

A well serviced and tuned engine is clean. Clean enough. Do you have a garden? Plant a couple of trees.

 

[GuestD]

The answer perhaps, and use sparingly.

"Some vehicles are ULEZ-exempt despite not meeting emissions standards. These include cars built more than 40 years ago, with a historic tax class and some agricultural, military and circus vehicles."

just watching the prices of these rocket.

and,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/how_toxic_is_your_car_exhaust

 

[Janne]

What has the World come to when young guys think of how Environmental friendly their vehicles are?

When I was young, all I wanted was Torque, horsepower, 0-60 and how I could tune it to be a little bit more fun....

On my G wagen project, I will have the possibility to ADD some NOx ( N20) into the engine......

It will not be my daily runner though. No AC.

 

[GuestD]

A change of mind-set. Ten years ago I had eighteen motorcycles, a 4 x 4 truck, a Hilux, and a car. Now I live where a car is no longer a necessity. So I have an e-bike, a scooter which meets all the latest current emissions legislation, and a Brompton folding bike I can take on the train or bus. I walk most places, use public transport for long journeys, and cycle if I'm in a hurry to get anywhere locally, as it's way quicker than sitting in congested traffic. The scooter is to get me into the wilds where there is no public transport, amazing how far you can travel at 45mph, and 150 + mpg. The last year my wife run a car, including depreciation, associated running costs, fuel etc, the total was around £7K. Now there is a saving.
My mountain bike is going on gumtree, where I'll probably get offered £20 for it, but I don't need it either so it's "off". I had a Raleigh DL-1 for years, and it was the most comfortable albeit slow, way of getting around, but consumerism tantalises.

 

[Paul_B]

What has the World come to when young guys think of how Environmental friendly their vehicles are?

I'll take that as a compliment but inaccurate. I'm not young but I am concerned about the environment but more interested in what the government and local authorities might impose on us in the name of climate change and pollution.

Diesel was never the fuel of the future but it made it easy for governments to promote under the guise of reducing carbon and fighting climate change. The truth is, in Europe, that when the decision to promote diesel and tax petrol more was about protectionism. European car manufacturers were more advanced with diesel but Japan less so. The Japanese focused more on petrol. So reducing japanese competition by driving the demand for diesel made sense. The evidence of the other pollutants being worse in diesel was known at the time.

It's not a case of tin hat conspiracy theory to say that diesel promotion was not in our interests.

Right now there's more people switching to petrol. Makes sense because euro 4 petrol cars meet ULEZ requirements. You need the latest euro 6 for diesel. However there are very few petrol vans the size of a transit. More electric vans that size.

Despite all this my main interest is about whether there's a risk of a van bought now within 10 years of use will no longer be practical because of environmental zones charging for non - compliant vehicles in more and more areas / towns. If so it might make sense to spend less on an older with a view to replace sooner. Although that might negate the environmentally sensible approach of running vehicles for at long at possible in order to reduce the impact due to production pollution / carbon footprint.

 

[Janne]

Diesel fuel is more energy dense, and the engines less sensitive for varying fuel quality. Engines have an excellent low rev torque.
With Turbos or Superchargers they are as 'quick' as a petrol engine.

That article Deekin posted was very interesting.

Electric vehicles need charging. If/when every vehicle is electric, how will you produce the electricity that is needed in UK??
Coal? Dirty. Hydro power? Not enough in UK. Gas? Dirty. And people oppose extraction. Solar? Not economically efficient in UK. Wind? well......
Wind, Solar are very varying supply too.. So you would need huge battery facilities to store the excess for low production times.
Nuclear? People ready for that?

Buy the car that suits you the best.

 

[GuestD]

Hydrogen, in theory, is cleaner than electric. I've mucked around with "browns gas", and had it run a generator supplementing the petrol fuel supply.

 

[Janne]

The best. But how do you get/make Hydrogen? I read somewhere a while ago that to make H is very energy demanding.

 

[Robson Valley]

Use excess solar power, above and beyond the capacity of your batteries = you have zero places to store that juice.
Use the alternator in your running vehicle. It's spinning, making juice and for what? Nothing at all.
Use those things to decompose plain water (H2O) to spend the excess energy.
Feed that oxygen and hydrogen into your engine = boost.
It isn't much but you already paid for it.
= = =
Two big issues with hydrogen:
1. The H2 molecules are so tiny that they can sneak out of a steel gas cylinder = you lose it!
2. In that process, I'm told that the hydrogen makes the tank metal brittle over time = cracks develop = tank is trash.

I don't know how the hydrogen is stored for fuel cell electrical production.
I have ridden in the original Ballard hydrogen fuel cell prototype city bus.
Regular bus. Enough torque & power to put your guts in the back seat.

I built my first hyrogen/oxygen fuel cell model in 1963. Not much has changed.

 

[Fadcode]

There is no answer to this question, a car whether it is electric, solar powered, hybrid etc will pollute the atmosphere, a lot of pollution comes from the tyres brakes,the manufacturing process, etc, one of the main faults with all electric vehicles are, especially in the UK, people living on main roads, modern housing estates in houses without driveways, gardens etc, will have a big problem putting the vehicles on charge of a night, the Govt has already said it will not pay the cost of installing power point to houses,, think also about our so called smart-motorways, what will happen when these electric cars run out of power on the motorways, the Govt are doing away with the safety barrier, the hard shoulder, the place will be mayhem.

As someone has pointed out, where is all the electricity coming from to charge all these cars, there isn't enough lithium to make all the batteries, most of our Nuclear Power stations run out before 2030, and the other thing to consider is this, the Govt reap the benefits of the tax on petrol and diesel sales to the tune of about £30 billion a year,,(2018) once all the vehicles are electric, they will have to raise that amount on Electricity, that will mean your domestic electricity bill will go through the roof,now apart from the high price you will be paying for an electric car living costs are going to be extremely high, whether you own a car or not.
And we have seen other knee jerk proposals like banning wood burners, BBQ's etc, etc,

What we need to look at really is ways that we can help reduce pollution without the detrimental effect on our normal lives, staggering working hours so that we cut down congestion in town and cities, closing down everything on one day per week, like Sundays banning car use, no shops open, this would effectively cut pollution by 14%, drastic I know but maybe that's what we need.
If we learnt to live without mobile phones, no social media, I wonder what effect that would have, there are more mobile phones than people in the world, I wonder what is the amount of electricity needed to keep all these charged up, could they be converted to solar powered.

The other thing to take into account is we were told by Govts, Scientists that diesel was cleaner, which made a lot of us buy diesel cars, so we did this in good faith because we thought we would be helping the environment, we were sold a pup, which is why I think a lot of people now distrust scientists and politicians.
No matter what happens we are all going to pay dearly, enjoy the good times while you can.

 

[Janne]

Hear, hear!

Sunday closed - we have that here. Roads are virtually empty, quet, peaceful.
What happens if the electronics should vanish?
We would start talking to each other. Go to cafees, tea houses.

If you promise to put that on your agenda, I will vote for you!

 

[Paul_B]

What happens on smart motorways if your diesel car runs out of fuel? Isn't that the same thing as electric car running out of power? You have a gauge in both and it takes the same effort to monitor a diesel fuel gauge as an electric power gauge, right?

Now if instead of talking of running out of power on motorways you talked about charging times and range then you'd be making valid points.

BTW most motorway stations have plenty of charging points and they're usually the fast charging points too. Half an hour gives a lot of EVs 80% capacity. Full range of EV cars seem to be 250+ on full charge so that's 200+ miles on 30 minutes charge. Current guidance is stopping on motorways every 2 hours, tiredness kills, so that's every 140 miles or 21 minutes charging time. Nice cup of coffee and a toilet break.

I don't claim that EVs are the answer or even where they need to be in their development cycle. They're a long way from being the ideal n solution but their developing fast. How long to get from model T Ford to something with modern power levels, good efficiency and current safety levels for drivers, passengers and pedestrians?

 

[GuestD]

A friend of mine has a bus pass. The bus that could take him literally to his workplace door, leaves from a stop five minutes walk from his house, yet he chooses to make the daily round trip of 54 miles by car. This is all too common, even paying for the bus journey would be cheaper and less stressful, and. kinder too the environment, but no. The person who coined this well known phrase has a lot to answer for.

"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure."

 

[Paul_B]

Personally my biggest issue with diesel is the pollutants that have been overlooked in the dash to reduce carbon and protect the European car industry from competition. The particulates, NOX, etc. Having been commuting by bike for about 5 years now I started to get breathing issues that I'd never had before. I eventually got an asthma diagnosis. I have no idea what caused it to develop but it hit me and in a noticeable way. It was a year or so of cycle commuting. Sitting at traffic lights behind car exhaust pipes. Usually large, diesel SUVs with one occupant.

Now I like cycling, always have, but I'm not an activist campaigning for cars off the road. I'm pro car and confront those who unreasonably (IMHO) blame cars and car drivers for everything they can. But despite that I do think diesel needs to be reduced as a car fuel. The drive to diesel was a mistake IMHO. I think a good indicator as to the science behind this comes from the euro rating of petrol and diesel cars that conform to LEZ & ULEZs. Euro 4 complies to both LEZ & ULEZ in petrol but you need euro 5 for LEZs and euro 6 for ULEZ in diesel. What that means is an old petrol car complies to ULEZ requirements but you need a 2016 diesel before the technology is in place to meet emissions levels for an ULEZ. That's 2005 compared to 2015 for introduction. Right now a 14 year old petrol banger has lower emissions than a 3/4 year old diesel. That's 10 years for diesel fuelled cars to catch up on emissions.

 

[Paul_B]

A friend of mine has a bus pass. The bus that could take him literally to his workplace door, leaves from a stop five minutes walk from his house, yet he chooses to make the daily round trip of 54 miles by car. This is all too common, even paying for the bus journey would be cheaper and less stressful, and. kinder too the environment, but no. The person who coined this well known phrase has a lot to answer for.

"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure."

A few years ago I had high ideals. I commuted by bike and enjoyed it, even the rain and snow. Strong wind less so until I get to my destination at which point I get the sense of achievement from beating the weather.

Now I'm less inclined to cycle commute every day. It leaves me feeling rough instead of having that exercise high. It got harder and the only reason I can think is the asthma. My times increased significantly at the time I first noticed it.

So now I drive in a lot more. I've become part of the problem again. One of those people who could take the cleaner option but doesn't. My partner works from home except when she's needed at work (at most twice a week). She cycles and it's twice my commute distance too. Occasionally she needs to get home quick so needs the car. I then have no choice but cycle commute or take the train.

We did years ago decide we'd only ever run one vehicle and we'd try to reduce its use as much as possible. It's mot working that well. We're on 13000 miles per year, down from my old 20,000 per year before I met my partner so you could say things have improved slightly.

Unless more people take steps to change their lifestyle things will not go well in the longterm. The idea of enjoying things while you have them is a bit wrong-headed. It needs a change in mentality