vegetarian

[Nagual]

Hemitical, you are right to say that not all organic fertilisers are manure, there indeed many others, seaweeds, various composts etc However it still raises, I think, an interesting point that perhaps those vegetarians who have chosen due to animal cruelty or something similar, should also be aware of. As I said, I previously didn't even think about that aspect, although being a meat eater, it may sound odd.

I don't think Clet_Ginger was trying to be deliberately aggressive with the question, and I certainly am not. Perhaps you'll allow me to rephrase it so that it makes more sense in the context I am trying to put it?

If you are a vegetarian, do you consider the providence of your vegetables to be an important aspect to choosing what ones to eat?


Although I am a meat eater, I don't eat a lot of it. When do, I try to get it free range, if chickens and RSPCA cert'd on other meat - yes even these conditions are from ideal, and not always adhered to. I'm simply interested, now the question was first raised, as to other peoples stances on it.


cheers,

 

[hermitical]

I guess it depends on your reason for being vegetarian whether the providence is of importance (as I have already said...)

Don't worry, you didn't come over as aggressive! Celt_Ginger on the other hand merely came across as a boring old reactionary

 

[MK123]

just to clarify dairy cows don't end up as beef cows in the end the meat from cows that have been milked extensively is not nice. they get used for dog food as far as i know

No, they do go into the food chain

 

[Toddy]

Dairy cattle are just a rickle of bones with a big bag. I wouldn't have thought there'd be much eating from them.
Ah well, nowt so queer as the modern food industry.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[MK123]

Dairy cattle are just a rickle of bones with a big bag. I wouldn't have thought there'd be much eating from them.
Ah well, nowt so queer as the modern food industry.

cheers,
Toddy

Depends on breed and stage of lactation. Im sure you wont find them in the prime cuts section, I would imagine more takeaway burgers!

 

[MK123]

A lot depends on your reason for being veggie.
Personally I do it because it is a lot better for our environment. Not only is there less pollution involved during production, the energy efficiency is also a lot higher: every step in our food chain increases on average 10 times the energy need (measured in energy consumption by the organism, excluding extra treatment by men).

Here's a scale showing the pressure certain foods put on our environment, which we all love since we're on this forum, right? (lower score is better)

source: Reijnders & Soret (2003) as quoted in the course 'Duurzame systemen' (2007) at Ghent University faculty of Bio-Engineering Sciences

As you can see, eating organic vegetables is much better for the environment than eating meat and choosing organic meat scores even slightly better than eating non organic vegetables.

Just to throw some numbers in the discussion

IMHO this is only half the story....

Firstly a large proportion of organinc food consumed in the uk is imported = food miles= carbon. also this raises the question of are the "organic standards" as strict as they are in the UK in these other countries ? Im sure tesco will tell you everyone must conform to the same standards to go on their shelves, something they said about argintinian beef. A product which mcdonalds said "woundnt touch with a barge pole", I feel this speaks volumes.

Secondly organic farming in any country may well be lower carbon, but... it lowers the yeild on that acreage, a limited resource in much of europe. So where will the (non organic) balance come from?

The supermarket will contact someone who can do it low cost, maybe brazil? excellent for brazillian farmers, prices go up. So they respond by- using excessive amounts of fert/chemicals which have become cheap compared to price they recieve
- grabing acres to grow more= deforestation
- GM technology, it IS on UK shelves (is this a bad thing?)
and also increases the food milage of conventional items which could other wise have been raised in the UK.

Also for those who do eat organic animal products, is it right to deny an animal medication when it is ill so that it might retain its organic status?

sincerely,
MK

 

[crushthesystem]

I'm a meat eater and until i met my girlfriend a couple of years ago i don't think i had eaten dinner without meat being involved (I blame my parents partly). That being said i also on occasion hunt and fish for my own meat as i prefer eating it when I've plucked, gutted and cleaned it. I agree that people eat too much meat and don't have a varied enough diet nowadays, which in all fairness is quite sad really. I believe that humans have evolved to eat whatever is available but now everything is available all the time. I would never tell somebody they shouldn't be vegetarian because people all have different preferences, I am a smoker how many people despise us? loads lol. Eat what tastes good and if something is good for you but tastes crappy then curry it and get on with it.

I doubt I've contributed much to this discussion but i hope nobody has been bored to tears by reading this lol.

 

[MK123]

If more people knew about the artificial insemination

Andrew.

Why is this cruel? It simply replaces natural mating with artificial?
Safer than having bulls around. Also it doesnt "induce lactation" it brings on lactation in the same way a natural mating would. Cows are programmed to have a calf every spring to match grass growth.

Im genuinley interested in why you think this as Im very interested in public perception of food production.

MK

 

[hermitical]

IMHO this is only half the story....

Firstly a large proportion of organinc food consumed in the uk is imported = food miles= carbon. also this raises the question of are the "organic standards" as strict as they are in the UK in these other countries ? Im sure tesco will tell you everyone must conform to the same standards to go on their shelves, something they said about argintinian beef. A product which mcdonalds said "woundnt touch with a barge pole", I feel this speaks volumes.

Secondly organic farming in any country may well be lower carbon, but... it lowers the yeild on that acreage, a limited resource in much of europe. So where will the (non organic) balance come from?

The supermarket will contact someone who can do it low cost, maybe brazil? excellent for brazillian farmers, prices go up. So they respond by- using excessive amounts of fert/chemicals which have become cheap compared to price they recieve
- grabing acres to grow more= deforestation
- GM technology, it IS on UK shelves (is this a bad thing?)
and also increases the food milage of conventional items which could other wise have been raised in the UK.

Also for those who do eat organic animal products, is it right to deny an animal medication when it is ill so that it might retain its organic status?

sincerely,
MK

Is it right to pump animals full of drugs to attempt to pre-empt disease caused by industrial farming with those drugs then being passed down the food chain?

I'd argue with the large proprtion being imported - depends what you mean. Most of our staples aren't. Out of season stuff yes, but the use of polytunnels is altering that (is that a good thing? Should we move away from wanting everything all of the time and get back to eating seasonally?).

I don't understand your comment about McDonalds and Argentinean beef - were McD's talking about organic beef? If certified by the SA the standards are the same at home or abroad, other certification bodies might not have such high standards for animal welfare. But I do understand we place trust in overseas certification bodies to ensure standards are met.

 

[trewornan]

I really don't see why being a veggie should be any kind of hindrance to bushcrafting. I take my food with me and don't rely on foraging - I'm not experienced enough and even if I was I don't want to spend all my time looking for stuff to eat.

A survival situation is different and I think you'd be extremely foolish to limit yourself unnecessarily especially when some meat is so readily available - shellfish in particular can be gathered by the handful with almost no effort.

Having said that, I think meat tastes far to good to give up, and as an avid ferreter (in the past) I know for sure I have no problem with personally dispatching, processing and eating animals.

 

[Celt_Ginger]

is it? well you asked....

And I still don't have an answer. All you've told me is that you think you know best.

 

[hermitical]

And I still don't have an answer. All you've told me is that you think you know best.

On a serious note though, do vegetarians only buy organically grown vegetables (it's grown using animal poo as fertilizer, how yuk is that) or do they buy chemically infested artificially pollinated genetically modified veg?

as it goes we do eat mostly organic but then I work for an organic wholesale/box scheme/grower/shop and my wife works for the Soil Association!

and I haven't told you I think I know best, I've told you what I think

 

[MK123]

Is it right to pump animals full of drugs to attempt to pre-empt disease caused by industrial farming with those drugs then being passed down the food chain?

I'd argue with the large proprtion being imported - depends what you mean. Most of our staples aren't. Out of season stuff yes, but the use of polytunnels is altering that (is that a good thing? Should we move away from wanting everything all of the time and get back to eating seasonally?).

I don't understand your comment about McDonalds and Argentinean beef - were McD's talking about organic beef? If certified by the SA the standards are the same at home or abroad, other certification bodies might not have such high standards for animal welfare. But I do understand we place trust in overseas certification bodies to ensure standards are met.

Prevention of disease is through use of vaccines? and what exactly is industrial farming? arent organic animals kept in large herds and confined for periods of the year?

The comment about mcdonalds reffered to standard beef, and was in reference to the double standards exhibited by our maor retailers in order to line their pockets. I used the example to show that organic standards may not be as good as they are in the uK. I cant say I know this to be the case with regards to organics, but I know it to be the case with regards to animal welfare, traceability and environmental protection. ie other countries are not as well regulated as our own.

MK

 

[hermitical]

I meant the overuse of antibiotics - you could also throw in the overuse of growth hormones, not that it prevents diseases but it goes into the food chain

Your example about McDonalds has nothing to do with organic produce so bears no relevance to differing organic standards?

 

[MK123]

I meant the overuse of antibiotics - you could also throw in the overuse of growth hormones, not that it prevents diseases but it goes into the food chain

Your example about McDonalds has nothing to do with organic produce so bears no relevance to differing organic standards?

Growth hormones as far as Im aware are banned in the eu.
antibiotics are expensive and so less is more

the MCds coment was an illustration of our major retailers double standadrs which MAY (or may not) also be the case with foreign organic standards

 

[hermitical]

I know growth hormones are banned for use on dairy cattle in the UK, don't know about EU. That's not to say that they don't get into our food chain from either dairy or meat cattle from outside those areas.

As far as I know antibiotics are routinely used in conventional farming, causing the rise of new strains of drug resistant bugs and making the antibiotics we use for ourselves less use as residues get into the food chain

 

[hermitical]

the MCds coment was an illustration of our major retailers double standadrs which MAY (or may not) also be the case with foreign organic standards

As far as I understand it anything produced organically outside the EU but brought into the EU for sale or processing needs to meet EU baseline organic standards. SA standards are higher than EU baseline so they either send inspectors out or have reciprocal arrangements with other certification bodies

 

[Lasse]

Firstly a large proportion of organinc food consumed in the uk is imported = food miles= carbon. also this raises the question of are the "organic standards" as strict as they are in the UK in these other countries ? Im sure tesco will tell you everyone must conform to the same standards to go on their shelves, something they said about argintinian beef. A product which mcdonalds said "woundnt touch with a barge pole", I feel this speaks volumes.

Food miles are important, but the production method is proven more important in many cases. A German investigation concluded eating lamb meat from a classic German farm was more polluting than eating lamb meat imported from New Zealand because the farming practices in NZ are so much less intensive... So whenever you have the choice between local and non-local food with the same certificate, obviously the local option should be the more environmentally friendly choice. In case of big differences between standards, it can get less clear and I'd prefer the one with highest standard.
A certificate is a certificate, if products from the UK and from Argentina have the same certificate, they follow the same strict/loose standards. There are different certificates with different standards though, you can easily inform yourselves on the WWW about them...

Secondly organic farming in any country may well be lower carbon, but... it lowers the yeild on that acreage, a limited resource in much of europe. So where will the (non organic) balance come from?

Organic farming does not necessarily mean less yield, as is illustrated in the book 'Erven van de toekomst' by the research group SteDuLa (a co-operation of bio-engineers, economists, different kinds of farmers, ...), it is often a matter of more "intelligent" farming. Being willing to adopt new practices and optimizing everything you can with the knowledge we have these days. This will not work in all cases but has been proven to be successful in several, even resulting in less intensive work for the farmer with higher yield and profit. And let's not forget we're currently dumping incredible amounts of food because we actually have an over production in Europe...
It's a fact that meat production uses a lot more land than vegetable production. In the case of land that is unsuited for vegetables this is obviously no problem and cattle should/could be grown there, in balance with the local ecosystem. A lot of meat is however grown in so called feedlots which is industrial meat production: big fields filled with animals on which nothing grows, all food for the animals is grown elsewhere and imported. The soy based food for the animals might well come from South America. Depending on the animal type you'll need 5-10 times more land to grow and feed the animals.

The supermarket will contact someone who can do it low cost, maybe brazil? excellent for brazillian farmers, prices go up. So they respond by- using excessive amounts of fert/chemicals which have become cheap compared to price they recieve
- grabing acres to grow more= deforestation
- GM technology, it IS on UK shelves (is this a bad thing?)
and also increases the food milage of conventional items which could other wise have been raised in the UK.

I doubt Brazilian farmers will switch from organic to non-organic if it's the organic labelling that brings in the money..? Deforestation will be much less the case in case of veggie consumption than meat consumption (see above: less land needed). Transport costs money as well. If both your UK and Brazilian farmer follow the same high standards, transport might become a more important price factor.

Also for those who do eat organic animal products, is it right to deny an animal medication when it is ill so that it might retain its organic status?

I'd prefer meat that's not filled with antibiotics and has lived a natural life. I'm not an animal rights activist though (although I do understand/follow some of their ideas).

Anyway, this post got a bit long and I feel like hijacking this thread. Maybe better to go back to the original subject of Veggie Bushcraft?

 

[QDanT]

just thought I'd share
http://www.wambie.com/tuttifrutti_br/wallpapers/foto_br-272.html
"food for thought"
:twak: I'll get my coat
cheers Danny

 

[Toddy]

Danny those are excellent

Bet he carves a mean Hallowe'en lantern

cheers,
Toddy