Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Janne]

Let us continue here!

Yes, I do see the point in the non killing, or not causing suffering. I have thought long and hard over several years, but decided to still eat Animalia.

What I try to do is to support ethically farmed producers as far as I am able to.
Also to eat less meat, not to waste/throw away, and to eat all parts ( meat, offal, marrow, skin if feasible, feet, tail)

I think it would be a very difficult situation if we all turned Vegan. Many animals worldwide live in areas where agriculture is impossible. Goats and sheep in arid, mountanious areas, sheep and reindeer in the Arctic. Hunting and fishing sustain several populations on the northern and southern fringes of the world.

Yes, we eat generally speaking too much meat and fish. It is to cheap too.

 

[Tengu]

Yes. One Question.

Why do veggies keep meat eating animals like cats and dogs?

 

[Janne]

I have well meaning friends that feed those vegan animal food.

That feed is so goddamn expensive it is sick. I did tell them that once, they did not like it.

 

[Prophecy]

Let us continue here!

Yes, I do see the point in the non killing, or not causing suffering. I have thought long and hard over several years, but decided to still eat Animalia.

What I try to do is to support ethically farmed producers as far as I am able to.
Also to eat less meat, not to waste/throw away, and to eat all parts ( meat, offal, marrow, skin if feasible, feet, tail)

I think it would be a very difficult situation if we all turned Vegan. Many animals worldwide live in areas where agriculture is impossible. Goats and sheep in arid, mountanious areas, sheep and reindeer in the Arctic. Hunting and fishing sustain several populations on the northern and southern fringes of the world.

Yes, we eat generally speaking too much meat and fish. It is to cheap too.

Of course. I'm not saying that all Afganis release their goats and plant sunflowers. No vegan is saying that. Only where feasible. People have to survive.

But in more temperate climates, in first world countries, we have a choice. We can choose animal products or we can leave them off our plates and do the planet, the animals and our bodies a favour.



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[Prophecy]

Yes. One Question.

Why do veggies keep meat eating animals like cats and dogs?

Last time I checked, cats cannot be healthy on a vegan diet. Surprisingly, the anecdotal evidence so far says that dogs can. But that was a couple of years ago that I checked.

As to your question, perhaps they got them before going vegan.

Perhaps they rescued a cat from a shelter rather than it being euthanized. I don't see anything there that would conflict there with a vegan lifestyle. The cat needs meat to survive so...

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[Prophecy]

Janne let me ask you a question for a change. I think I've been a good sport so let me flip things over the other way for a bit.

You say you can see why someone would go vegan. So why aren't you vegan? Why do you eat meat? Really think about it.

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[Prophecy]

Here's something I saw which i thought was really well put and much better than I could do. And with that I'll go to bed!

People LOVE their dogs and cats. In fact, Americans love their dogs and cats so much they spend nearly $60 billion a year on them! And they should: Companion animals are sensitive and sweet, and fill our lives with joy. They are truly family members and we should take care of them accordingly.


So what does this have to do with eating meat?


Well, for starters, the animals we raise and kill for food are just as sensitive and intelligent as the dogs and cats we adore at home. Consider, for example, that chickens can recognize more than 100 individuals, cows form close friendships, and pigs are thought to have the intelligence of a three-year-old child.


In all the ways that matter, farmed animals are very similar to dogs and cats. Yet we relegate them to intense and unimaginable cruelties: extreme confinement, brutal mutilations, and bloody, violent deaths. The truth is that if we treated just one dog or cat the way the meat, dairy, and egg industries treat billions of animals, we’d be behind bars for animal abuse.


So how can we say we’re animal lovers and eat animals? I would argue we honestly can’t.


No one needs to eat animal products to survive; it’s quite the opposite. In fact, there are tremendous health and environmental benefits to ditching animal products. Right now millions of people are thriving on a delicious and humane plant-based diet.


So if you love your dogs or cats and see them as the unique, sensitive, and intelligent beings they are, it’s time you opened your eyes and started seeing farmed animals the same way.


Love animals, you say? Then stop eating them.


http://www.mercyforanimals.org/i-love-dogs-i-love-cats-yes-i-still-eat-meat

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[Lithril]

Difficult discussion without sounding judgemental this one. I eat meat although I definitely eat a lot less than previously and I also regularly enjoy vegetarian and vegan meals. There is quite a bit of evidence out there of the health benefits of being vegan and also some interesting reads, even if not scientifically based, of testimonials of elite athletes whose lives have been transformed since turning vegan.

My problem is I enjoy meat and I like how it adds to a meal. If you really want to throw a spanner in the works though it's people who are vegetarian due to moral reasons rather than not liking meat but still have dairy products. You're pretty much permenantly keeping cows pregnant to produce milk knowing that the offspring will most likely be slaughtered for animal feed or for waste.

I can't see myself giving up meat completely any time soon but I am starting to buy more vegan cook books, mostly to try and learn different cooking methods and also to try different ideas for meals like breakfasts. I think the only vegan breakfast I've found so far that's quick and easy are smoothies.

 

[Janne]

Janne let me ask you a question for a change. I think I've been a good sport so let me flip things over the other way for a bit.

You say you can see why someone would go vegan. So why aren't you vegan? Why do you eat meat? Really think about it.

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Excellent question.
My ‘problem’ is that I like the flavour, the taste.
I love food. Of all sorts.
Recently we discovered a US product made from a unripe fruit called
Jackfruit. I would say it could substitute maybe 50% of our beef usage, maybe a bit more.
But, we can not get it here yet, but I am working on it.

I try to avoid chemicals in the food as much as I can, as I fear getting colon cancer, something they have died from on dad’s side for grnerationd, so those artificially flavoured meat analogs are out.

I love fishing, and eating fish. I have not found a good substitute there.

In short, the main factor me eating Animalia is taste.
Plus the nutrition I should add.

 

[Janne]

I guess I should say that taking the step towards a vegetarian diet I find kind of a bad half measure.
Sure I love, LOVE, cheese. Tried vegan cheese. I doubt I have eaten a more processed and artificial stuff than that. The once I tried were foul.
But, cheese from milk and other milk products are not the healthiest foods out there. Very high % of fat. Cholesterole.
Milk I do not touch. Kefir I love.
Plus what I said before, to get milk you need to kill the offspring. Kind if defeats the purpose.


So no vegetariasm for me. Mixed or vegan.

 

[Robson Valley]

My anatomy, my physiology and my biochemistry have fine-tuned my species as omnivores.
I cannot afford any nutritional stress at the present time so I'm happy to be resigned to omnivory
for the rest of my life.

 

[Tengu]

In this country farm animals are very well looked after, better than people.

I go to livestock shows; the most popular booths are the welfare ones.

But you are right, making milk takes silly resources. Beef cows can be reared on rough grazing

 

[Janne]

I had a friend in UK that had meat sent down from Scotland. I remember the taste of the Highland Cattle meat. Gamey. Nice.

I imagine that is what our ancestors were tasting when they seared a chunk of an Auroch.

 

[Robson Valley]

I can imagine a monotonous diet, meat included ( " that same damn cow is getting cooked again tonight.. .. . . ." )
You have to barter for diversity, omnivory.
Tonight is beef liver. Some thick-slice bacon and a mess of fried onions.
Tomorrow could be elk/bison/venison. I have my usual craving for fish and lots of it.
We had some chicken curry, need some sausage & cinnamon apple.
The big farm egg fritata is long gone.

The carbs have varied from roti flat breads to rice, pasta and quinoa. Tonight will be roasted/seasoned potato.
I need them to be as diverse as the meats.

Veg is the same thing = diversity. Tonight is cole slaw.
Hard to say what's next.

 

[Fadcode]

Surely there are two things at least, to take into consideration,if everyone turned vegan, or vegatarian.
1....If everyone stopped eating meat, then a lot of animals would become extinct, not may people would keep a cow , or a pig, chicken,etc as a pet, keeping sheep would be too expensive as the wool is virtually worthless.
2....I doubt we could actually grow enough food to feed them.

I think its a personal choice to go vegan, we eat meat because we always have, its plentiful and relatively cheap, and we do get a lot of vitamin value from, beef , fish etc
Its abit like smoking, drinking alcohol, personal choice, no big deal.................let it lie
What I cant understand is, it seems half the world is on a diet, and the other half is starving,

 

[Janne]

Well, I do not think we could keep milk cows. What would we do with the calves?

And nobody can foresee the changes in our society if a large % went vegan. Slowly over grnerations that would work. Msybe that is what is happening.

But we should eat much, much less meats and fish.
Good for them, good for us.

I have an excellent vegan dish for you:
Get the Sofrito tomatobased sauce.
Fry a finely chopped onion until see through.
Pour over the Sofrito snd heat
Drain one can of Ackee, place in Sofrito. Gemtly turn in and heat up.

Good over cooked grains.

 

[Prophecy]

I would say it could substitute maybe 50% of our beef usage, maybe a bit more.

In short, the main factor me eating Animalia is taste.
Plus the nutrition I should add.

Yeh I had Jackfruit in China and I've seen recipes using it as a meat substitute. Looks great.

What if I said to you that I have a dog. I used to beat her 7 days a week but now I only beat her 3 days a week. Would that be seen as a good move? Or would you chastise me for simply any amount of injustice?

That's what it sounds like to me. Everyone these days says that they've reduced their suffering to animals. But nothing short of a complete removal of animal products is doing justice to them.

And you've said that the only reason you do eat meat is because you like the taste. Do you think that 5 minute palette pleasure is justification of an animal's suffering and pain and murder? When you don't need to do it?

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[Prophecy]

I guess I should say that taking the step towards a vegetarian diet I find kind of a bad half measure.
Sure I love, LOVE, cheese. Tried vegan cheese. I doubt I have eaten a more processed and artificial stuff than that. The once I tried were foul.
But, cheese from milk and other milk products are not the healthiest foods out there. Very high % of fat. Cholesterole.
Milk I do not touch. Kefir I love.
Plus what I said before, to get milk you need to kill the offspring. Kind if defeats the purpose.


So no vegetariasm for me. Mixed or vegan.

That's exactly how I felt! Same thing. It's all or nothing. The milk and egg industry are just as bad if not worse than the meat industry.

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[Prophecy]

My anatomy, my physiology and my biochemistry have fine-tuned my species as omnivores.
I cannot afford any nutritional stress at the present time so I'm happy to be resigned to omnivory
for the rest of my life.

But whether you feel our bodies have 'evolved' to consume animal flesh or not, it doesn't change the fact that we can be even healthier eating no meat or fish or eggs or dairy. We have that choice.

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[Prophecy]

In this country farm animals are very well looked after, better than people.

I go to livestock shows; the most popular booths are the welfare ones.

But you are right, making milk takes silly resources. Beef cows can be reared on rough grazing

That is completely incorrect. Do you really think that behind closed doors they are treating the animals with respect and loving care and attention? When prices are so competitive, corners are cut and things are 'economised' ie sped up, more pain and suffering for the animals.

For example, there is no such thing as cruelty free eggs. Male chicks are suffocated or thrown in a meat grinder as soon as they hatch. The girls suffer in battery cages or "cage free" barns with a hundred thousand birds smashed together with no room to move or breathe, suffocating from ammonia. Their beaks are mutilated by the farmers without anesthesia and the birds are slaughtered when they are babies when their egg production slows down.

Here's a link to some of what goes on behind closed doors in the UK. Wholesale factory farming is a gruesome business.

Short video -

Documentary of half an hour -