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Teaching and learning

Discussion in 'Bushcraft Chatter' started by Bee Outdoors, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Bee Outdoors

    Bee Outdoors Member

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    May it be with good intention or not, sometimes we find ourselves telling people how to to do things.
    Telling someone how to do something is sometimes just as bad as telling them not to do it. No one likes to be told, rather shown how something is done and let them decide for themselves if that’s the way they want to do it. For us there might be a right way and a wrong way of doing something but for the other person our right way might not be theirs.
    If we are going to teach a skill or two then we should teach it with passion and understanding, the person learning will in their own way absorb that skill and the way it was taught.
    If we punish someone for doing wrong what we taught, we let ourselves down for not teaching it the right way, you see there is more then one way to achieve the end product, the importance is what is learned in the process, both by the student and teacher.
     
  2. MikeeMiracle

    MikeeMiracle Full Member

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    Hi Bee

    I think different people have different ways of learning and this is all dependant on their mindset. Some like to follow the rules religiously and then believe that they did something wrong if they cannot get it to work. Personally like yourself I like to see the "rules" as a guide that you need to cater to what works for you.
     
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  3. Bee Outdoors

    Bee Outdoors Member

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    Totally.
     
  4. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I disagree fully!

    On many, if not most, occasions, you need to tell them the correct way.
    I would like to go that far to say this applies top 99.9% of the learning/teaching interaction.

    You do NOT let somebody decide how to drive a vehicle, if the traffic laws are 'working for them'.
    You tell them/show them the correct way.

    This applies to most situations in life, be it school, uni, whaever.

    Sure, you let your child decide which shoe he wants to do first.
     
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  5. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    But is the correct way for a right handed individual correct for a left handed person? I'm sure many older persons can remember the agony of being forced to write "correctly" using their right hand while being left handed.
    Left handedness seems to come down the male side of my family. I remember my dad trying to teach me things in a left handed way that just didn't work for me but did for my brother. He used to get very upset I wasn't doing it right.
    Due to this early indoctrination in lefthandedness while being naturally right handed I can be clumsy in others eyes but it works for me and I feel totaly in control. I've had no more than a few accidents that we all have now and again usualy due to carelessness tiredness etc. Only one "axeident" required a hospital visit, and that was because others insisted and didnt trust my own first aid and panicked . I've worked with sharp tools, tractors etc a good part of my life.
    We all work differently we are not robots though I agree there is "safe mode" and "not at all safe mode"
     
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  6. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    No, those things must be considered, of course!
    But, some things must be done with the 'wrong hand' and taught to be done, no matter what,, due to the layout.

    .
     
    #6 Janne, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  7. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    Can you enlarge on what must be done in a certain way and no other due to layout? I might be thick :) but I can't think of anything offhand and I've been pondering this for half an hour.
    I can only think of scissors but you can get left and right handed ones so I can't count them realy unless one wants to be pedantic and say you can only use right handed scissors with your right hand... which is obvious. I find this concept fascinating. .. mainly as my brain has come to a halt trying to think of something.
     
  8. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Well, the layout of a car, aircraft, for example.

    The ergonomics are designed for a right handed person. But left handed people (usually) do not have any problems learning to use such designs efficiently, just as ( with a bit of training and practice) a 'Rightie" can use tools for a 'Leftie".

    I am a Rightie, so my professional equipment is designed for that, but sometimes I swap sides with my assistant and use the equipment that suddenly is wrong. So I use it with my left hand!

    (But that was not what the Op initially wrote about , so sorry!)
     
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  9. Wayne

    Wayne BCUK Welfare Officer
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    I’m not sure I totally agree with the original post.

    I have been a coach and trainer plus Bushcraft instructor 30 plus years.
    Whilst anyone that has been a student with me will know that one of my favourite sayings is as long as it’s safe it’s probably right. Certain skills and techniques need to be done in a certain way to be safe and efficient.

    It’s my job as a trainer to explore the best methods for each individual to achieve the best results they can with their experience and skills.

    I really enjoy enabling folk to take their skills to the next level. Sometimes it’s small adjustments to technique other times it’s completely back to basics.

    Experiential learning is great but I wouldn’t try it with fungi foraging if I were you.
     
  10. Hammock_man

    Hammock_man Full Member

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    "This is the right way to do some thing" , "This is one the the safe ways to do this", "From my experience and from the years of experience of those who taught me, this method works", "Don't worry about it, have fun". Wonder which answer will get some one killed!
     
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  11. Tiley

    Tiley Full Member

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    'Teaching' per se is merely the means by which we impart information or advice to others; 'learning' is what they then go and do with it. With a practical-based activity like bushcraft, help to improve a learned skill is often sought; the delivery of that advice from someone who has, in the eyes of the recipient, greater expertise or experience, is usually well received and, in most instances, will help the pupil to improve or gain a deeper understanding. Following the delivery of information, the most important element is for the 'teacher' watch the 'pupil' practise that skill, suggesting ways in which the technique might be finessed further.

    I don't think that, unless life and limb are at stake, one would ever turn round and say 'don't'. It is too aggressive a way to encourage subtle or gentle alteration of the practice. If, however, the 'pupil's' safety or that of someone nearby is compromised, then, yes - use it. The curt order will produce the desired response; however, it is always worth explaining later, once the situation has been defused, why that shouldn't be done otherwise the 'pupil' feels only admonished rather than informed.

    I would add that there is no particular 'right way' in bushcraft. Some ways are more effective and efficient than others and it is practice that allows us to reach a greater level of efficiency over time. When 'teaching', we are often just passing on the findings of our own informal practice or research for the 'pupil' to do what they will.

    'Understanding', in terms of knowing what is involved in succeeding at lighting a fire or carving a spoon, is important but so is the understanding of the mistakes that people will make - and continue to make - on their journeys to becoming a 'better' bushcrafter. Tolerating the errors does not make you a bad 'teacher'; indeed, explaining how to mitigate that error makes you a better one. Passion, with all its deeply-felt connotations and associated intolerences, should be there but, to ensure the constructive and successful delivery of the subject, should be expressed in broad terms (i.e. "I'm passionate about bushcraft") rather than ones specific to the topic taught.

    Ultimately, people who practise bushcraft at whatever level do so because they want to be there. They are a willing audience, keen to improve their skillset and knowledge. The job of the teacher is to provide that resource in a way that is accessible, enthusiastic and that will result in the 'pupil' having learned something that will help them practise with greater certainty. That passing of information to a receptive audience is something not mentioned thus far: education. This is the set of skills that are vital and which have no written curriculum. They take in responsiveness, interest, engagement, thinking, discernment and reflective practice among many, many others. As Albert Einstein once tellingly said, "Education is what is left when we have forgotten what we learned." As in life, so in bushcraft: we learn and practise many skills but it is our education that allows us to concentrate on the ones that are apposite and relevant.
     
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  12. Bee Outdoors

    Bee Outdoors Member

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    WOW! I have had many replies to this post, here and on other platforms, when I start reading some of the comments I mostly get half way down as I am sure the person commenting has totally misunderstood my post or disregarded it after the first few sentences. I am pleased to say that I not only read all of your comment but fully enjoyed it too.when one gets the understanding of the person that took the tome to compose such a good reply then one can also see that the author of that comment is very passionate about the subject in question. Thank you for such a well written reply. You are one of a handful of people that not only understood the post but cared to express intelligence in the matter.
     
  13. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    You are assuming then that what you write in the first post is the (absolute) truth?
     
  14. Bee Outdoors

    Bee Outdoors Member

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    I really do not get what you trying to ask, but what I write I believe in, it’s my opinion and I am not out to convince anyone that my opinion is better then theirs.
     
  15. C_Claycomb

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    I love the irony that the thread opens with a post which is a little hard to read, but is generally about teaching and not being critical or punishing people who might be more naturally inclined to do the task in a different way than the teacher, then a bit later being critical (and dismissive) of people who took time to answer, because many of them they did not "get" what was being described. :biggrin2:

    That reply makes me curious whether many of the folk who did respond will be inclined to do so again in the future.

    Hey ho.

    ATB

    Chris
     
  16. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    Ah but there are many different learning styles. Some can work from a list of instructions, some like to work from pictorials( like ikea). Some like to be shown how to some work well after things just being explained in detail. So I think a good teacher can and will use a combination of these methods and if someone is struggling to understand switch styles untill one is found to suit that person. My father was a teacher and very stuck with his style of teaching. Anyone who didn't get it quick enough was probably mentally subnormal! Thank goodness people are much more flexible in their teaching methods nowadays.
     
  17. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Spot on, C-Clay!

    yes, there are many different teaching styles, but they all ( the ones that work) boil down to a person transmitting the knowledge he/she has to somebody that does not have it.

    I do not believe in people finding their own way to knowledge, by trying and learning by mistakes. ( we still of course do that, as we tend not to listen to the Oldies ......:) )

    The OP's thread reminds me of many schools competitions these days - where everybody gets a prize.
     
  18. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Well, I am referring to your statement, that the posters not agreeing with you are either not understanding or not intelligent.
    Your last sentence on post number 12. Quote 'You are one of a handful of people that not only understood the post but cared to express intelligence in the matter." End quote.
    Implying the rest of us did not understand and are not intelligent (enough) ?
    Or?


    Edit: I personally, if I go on a course to learn something - say - 'Primitive Firestarting', I want to be shown exactly what I should use, and how. If I make mistakes, I also want to be told about them,, and shown the correct way.
    As I am apparently less intelligent, I want to be told and shown several times, until my feeble mind understands, and I can do it!
    Maybe I am the only one wanting this?
    :)
     
    #18 Janne, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019

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