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Discussion in 'Other Chatter' started by Toddy, Oct 10, 2013.
being fed milk made by possibly dehydrated adults?
.........you clearly have a bias in favour of Mr Lundin. I don't. I've breastfed two babies, I drank a little more when I was feeding, my babies thrived, they didn't pee clear, and they were at that peak of health of perfectly normal growing infants. Even as they grew into toddlerhood they didn't have clear urine..... I admit that after they were toilet trained so long as everything worked fine, I left my sons to their own devices re the loo so I can't tell you what colour they piddled as teenagers.
Too much water is as bad as too little, and for most of us those guidelines that are spuriously given as 'scientific' clearly aren't unbiased.
......just had a thought....you know that the earliest sites of 'civilization' that we have found all show some evidence for brewing ?
I know that in the UK and Europe that small beer was the only way to be sure that the 'water' folks drank was disease free.
The normal fare in the castles, etc., of the time were three pints of small beer and a loaf of bread per day per person as the provision.
Those were folks who were much more physically active than most of us, who lived outdoor lifestyles, and who had no benefit of 'scientific' or massaged statistics to tell them how much they should or shouldn't have been drinking.
Actually I have a bias towards running down every branch and removing the logical jumps that enable spurious conclusions.
Swallow I didn't intend to argue with you; if I'm wrong then tell me where and why, but I don't see it, I really don't.
The fellow you quote is taking people out into the desert; in the first place that's a very different environment to ours, but clear urine isn't 'normal', and if one drinks that much liquid then the problems of potassium deprivation are already known and are an issue. If he's dealing with that, and clearly he must be doing something right since he and his students are alive, no?, then fine, in his desert environment.
However, when scientific rigour is applied, the results disagree quite noticeably with those from the supposedly 'scientific' ones that were sponsored by the bottled water industry.
Those who fought in WW2 in North Africa, Palestine and Egypt said that the personal water ration for each man in Monty's army was 3pints of water, and that was for washing as well as drinking. They had salt tablets and they brewed up tea on a regular basis. The tea was not always extra rations though the military did try to achieve more for them.
Nowhere near the four litres that ordinary everyday folks are being advised as a minimum amount, and nothing like the 7 litres that I have seen folks claim are a necessity.
I must admit, at work most days I have a cup of coffee in the morning, one at lunch and a pint of juice with my dinner when I get home.... Possibly a can of pop.
Lots of talk here about balance and the body self regulating and stuff. I think these are the relevant points regarding fluid intake.
I have regular and ongoing bladder/urinary tract problems as a result of a spinal injury a few years a go. I regularly take antibiotics to clear infections and have spent a lot of time with a lot of Urologists over the years. None of this has made me an expert in all things urinary but...I have obviously taken great interest in trying to prevent and treat urinary infections, which includes monitoring and adjusting fluid intake to help manage my health problems.
For me balance can be elusive depending on the state of my health. Too much fluid can cause me problems as can too little so I'm left trying to manage as best I can, juggling with infections and the need to take plenty fluids, while being ill through excessive antibiotic use. It's difficult and balance can often be something I wave at as I swing between extremes of dehydration and over hydration.
The point I'm trying to make is these guidelines are probably meaningless as everybody's body is striving to find it's own balance and regulation depending on the individuals health and needs, which can be as different as chalk and cheese. Recommended fluid/water intakes don't take that into account.
The Urologists I've met have their own opinions regarding fluid intake. Some are pro and some are anti the ''plenty water is good for you'' mantra. Consensus doesn't exist.
Some things don't lend themselves well to guidelines. We aint all the same and that's that.
These guidelines are about as much use as a the BMI index. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the allegations about bottled water marketing were true but little would surprise me nowadays.
And they died much younger than we do.
The why do all published data say the same thing? That dark urine is an indication of something wrong. I agree that it's not normal to be perfectly clear but very nearly so. Mine was until I went on so many meds. And yes baby urine is; at least Carson's is, if the color of wet spots in his diapers is any indication (I've never watched any baby actually pee; only changed their wet diapers)
The recommendation to drink 6 to 8 glasses of water a day was taught way back when I was in elementary school over 45 years ago; long before the bottled water industry and in every class and textbook regardless of location (desert, city, mountains, prairie, or swamp)
And they suffered mightily. As for salt, now-a-days military regs generally forbid extra salt supplements as it's already in near toxic levels in rations.
I Desert Storm we were generally told to drink around a gallon or more per day. But in reality we drank much more. As a result we didn't suffer anywhere near what the WWII vets did.
On a realistic basis I generally drink a couple of cups (10 ounce or larger mugs) of coffee at breakfast, two or three glasses (16 ounce glasses, not the 8 ounce measuring glass recommended) of water or iced tea at lunch and again at supper. That doesn't count what I drink between meals. I drank much more when I was younger and active (oddly that was before I was diabetic) And TBH that amount was about the norm for most country folk back when I was growing up.
And NO, my potassium and sodium levels are just fine; yes excessive water consumption will flush the electrolytes out of your body but that would take in excess of 4 or 5 gallons a day to do that.
I recently watched a documentary on the Six Day War. Israeli soldiers were made to drink one litre of water per hour and this kept them fighting fit. Its thought that dehydration killed as many of the opposition as Israeli weapons did.
The recommended alcohol 'units' are also a number plucked out of thin air and not based on true research.
I'm doing my bit now to keep hydrated, sitting in bed with a mug of tea and a packet of hobnobs for dunking Poached eggs and Kippers later
And Toddy regarding those British WWII vets that were only issued 3 pints per day; care to guess who it was that recommended that we in Desert Storm drink so much?
Regarding urine colour and hydration, there is currently a poster in many hospitals with a colour chart and a little rhyme
1 to 3 is healthy pee
4 to 8 you must hydrate
(Accounting for the fact that some foods and medications affect urine colour)
Over hydration is as dangerous as dehydration, as has already been pointed out, it can mess with your electrolyte levels and can also lead to cerebral edema.
I don't tend to drink enough. That's about 5 - 7 mugs of liquid plus some fruit and salad.
How do I know I don't drink enough? Because if that intake drops by even a small amount, I get kidney stones. Pissing blood is a good reminder that I haven't been drinking enough.
That said, the article Toddy cited isn't a study into long term (or even medium term) health. It's about the effect on sporting performance over a period of a few hours. Fluid intake and health over a period of weeks is a different matter.
Reading through this thread, then bamm out comes this. Still laughing now as I tap away.
And for my penny's worth, I work in industry were temps rang from ambient to 67degC and it's a power plant in case you wondered. And I can either drink maybe 2litres or 5litres a day, guess why anybody. Answers on a postcard.
And again loved the reply
I don't think there' a definite amount for the human race, it depends on so many factors: -
Habits; smoking/mouth breather
The main thing is to keep the pee colour around the 1-3 colour on the chart, eat well for salts levels and if exercising heavily or not eating drink something designed to replace those salts. Try not to smoke and breath through the nose.
Find what's suitable to you! I used to know a girl where she had no thirst reflex, used to keel over in the summer because she was dehydrated but just didn't get thirsty. She had to learn to go by regular water and urine colour. Also with water remember that little and often is better than drought and flood for you're body.
There is a similar "health chart" for the other end but this isn't the place to post it.
Isn't the general message to be aware of what is normal for you and to be alert to any changes? (Assuming the same lifestyle/activity levels).
I vaguely remember a comment by - I think Uncle Ray - during one of his desert exploits - that water was better off in you than in a bottle - ie don't try to ration it. I did wonder about that, as the more you drink, the more likely it is that you'll pee more as your body won't move into "crisis" mode and restrict urination (unless of course you store the wee and try to recycle via distillation - the old "two-bottle joined by gaffer tape and bury part in sand" technique.)