Raymond to the rescue (Raoul Moat)

[Matt.S]

I may be wrong but i can't see there being a grain if truth in this. Lets look at the facts, there's a nutter on the run with who knows what weapons at his disposal, he's already killed once, attempted two other murders and has said he's going to kill again. What bright spark would think, i know lets get a civilian to go in and try to track him. A civilian thats very high profile,a world wide known television personality, unarmed and if anything went wrong it would look very bad for the police, with no chance of any deniability. The armed forces, especially the s.a.s.or the even better trained s.b.s. have people well versed in the art of tracking, who could have been armed and who's skills exceed that of Ray Mears. It could also be that the police and the media fabricated this story to hide the fact that special forces were involved as im sure they would have been. Furthermore with all the publicity involved in this incident i can't imagine Ray coming out and denying it.

The issue of actively using armed forces personell against a simple criminal was discussed already. Suffice to say it's a no-no.

What a lot of people here seem to be forgetting is that Mr Mears was involved in the 'survival' and E&E community for years. He is involved with military survival schools. He's spent at least some time with the paramilitary big-game-wardens in Africa -- who hunt down armed groups of men in life-or-death situations. He's not just some cuddly TV presenter who spends his whole time paddling around Canada and wandering around the South Downs.

 

[soulstar1963]

why is it a no no remember forest gate and the iranian embassy

 

[Harley]

Get with the programme soulstar, tracking a person these days involves electronic tracking (IT, aerial surveillance platforms and geeks).

The police (Home Office) take the lead in this sort of activity and request MOD support (IT, aerial surveillance platforms and geeks) when required.

 

[soulstar1963]

i couldnt agree more so why involve a civilian like ray mears and as regards him giving the police the idea of where moat might have gone just by looking at a map is ludicrous......ok you may be able to read contour lines and see woods but thats about it, as i was told when i was in the army theres no substitute for a man on the ground and the mark 1 eyeball.

 

[phaserrifle]

I may be wrong but i can't see there being a grain if truth in this. Lets look at the facts, there's a nutter on the run with who knows what weapons at his disposal, he's already killed once, attempted two other murders and has said he's going to kill again. What bright spark would think, i know lets get a civilian to go in and try to track him. A civilian thats very high profile,a world wide known television personality, unarmed and if anything went wrong it would look very bad for the police, with no chance of any deniability. The armed forces, especially the s.a.s.or the even better trained s.b.s. have people well versed in the art of tracking, who could have been armed and who's skills exceed that of Ray Mears. It could also be that the police and the media fabricated this story to hide the fact that special forces were involved as im sure they would have been. Furthermore with all the publicity involved in this incident i can't imagine Ray coming out and denying it.

why is it a no no remember forest gate and the iranian embassy

Forest Gate? only info I can find on that suggests that the raids where carried out by police officers.
the iranian embassy was also somewhat different. at the time (about 30 years ago) the SAS where about the only group in the UK who had the neccecary skills and training to perform major hostage-rescue operations. the police had firearms teams, but not up to that level.
involving the millitary in civil policing, especially in an armed role, is a legal nightmare, and unlike terrorism, where it can be looked at as a national security issue, this was very much a local problem.

also, I suspect you over-estimate the tracking skills of the SAS and simmilar groups. unlike mr mears they are primarily soldiers, and so have a hell of a lot more to learn (firearms use, demolitons ect) and deal with even more environments (urban as well as the standard temperate, desert, jungle, arctic group) so they have less time to learn tracking than a dedicated outdoorsman.

 

[Tengu]

Im dubious about it too.

Theres so many strange thinga about this case. why worry?

 

[xylaria]

involving the millitary in civil policing, especially in an armed role, is a legal nightmare, and unlike terrorism, where it can be looked at as a national security issue, this was very much a local problem.

This regiment are target acquisition and surveillance trained.Some also hold the green triangle badge. They have "helped" the city of london police and the met for 90 odd years.
A bit strange there was no dogs. Why tornado jet was used , when a normal police chopper would have IR cameras I don't know. It looks like a fear spreading exerise, to justify a more militarised police force to me.

 

[EdS]

why tornado - makes sense. Leave the chopter to do its daily duty over Newcastle and use RAF Tornado that would be train over Otterburn anyway. Good training for the guy up there - and no pulling of resource from other jobs.

suspect it may well of just been looking around the vast open moors around Otterburn and Rothbury area - it was thought that Moat had been spotted on the Otterburn ranges at one point.

 

[Limaed]

[/QUOTE]involving the millitary in civil policing, especially in an armed role, is a legal nightmare, and unlike terrorism, where it can be looked at as a national security issue, this was very much a local problem.[/QUOTE]

Sorry not true, the Police have a responsiblity for all missing persons (whether criminal or otherwise) in the UK. When an RAF Mountain Rescue Team /RAF / RN Sea King / Tornado / SF is deployed its working for the Police as a SAR or other asset. The on scene Police commander requests assistance from the military who offer the most appropriate asset and if nessersary the Police let them run the incident in line with their expertise. This is known as MACC or Military Aid to the Civil Community and can take
many forms.
In an armed incident Police and service personal act within the same 'Rules of Engagement' which cover any legal issues as long as they are followed correctly. I think the average citzen would be very suprised at how much power the Police have.

 

[soulstar1963]

eddie mcgee S.A.S was used to track a civillian a few years ago

 

[Harley]

...as i was told when i was in the army theres no substitute for a man on the ground and the mark 1 eyeball.

In your email to me earlier today, you claim you served for nine years in the 2nd 'royal parachute regiment'

I find it unusual that you get the name of your former unit incorrect?

 

[Harley]

eddie mcgee S.A.S was used to track a civillian a few years ago

He failed to find his man as well.

 

[Harley]

soulstar has gone awfully quiet after telling me he is ex 2 Para.

When I asked some basic questions about his life in that unit he has clammed up, funny old thing!

Shame really, one of my colleagues served in 2 Para for some time, including 'down South' in 1982 to more recently in Afghanistan in 2008 and he would love to catch up with an old mucker.

Come on soulstar, we're dying to meet up with you for a swift half pint or three, stop being coy and reply to my email

 

[xylaria]

why tornado - makes sense. Leave the chopter to do its daily duty over Newcastle and use RAF Tornado that would be train over Otterburn anyway. Good training for the guy up there - and no pulling of resource from other jobs.

suspect it may well of just been looking around the vast open moors around Otterburn and Rothbury area - it was thought that Moat had been spotted on the Otterburn ranges at one point.

Fair enough it makes some sense now. Big chunks of the op do sound like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[Laurentius]

In your email to me earlier today, you claim you served for nine years in the 2nd 'royal parachute regiment'

I find it unusual that you get the name of your former unit incorrect?

I served only yesterday in King Frederick the Umpteenths Hussars and you dare tell me that is a fictional regiment! Fie on you sir will it be pistols at dawn or swords

 

[JonathanD]

soulstar has gone awfully quiet after telling me he is ex 2 Para.

When I asked some basic questions about his life in that unit he has clammed up, funny old thing!

Come on soulstar, we're dying to meet up with you for a swift half pint or three, stop being coy and reply to my email

That doesn't mean much, someone I don't know asks me about my history I'd do the same thing. We aren't talking about a members history or credentals in this thread, so let's not turn into that.

 

[Harley]

That doesn't mean much, someone I don't know asks me about my history I'd do the same thing. We aren't talking about a members history or credentals in this thread, so let's not turn into that.

I asked him what year he left, no names or anything sensitive. Coupled with his use of incorrect terminology... go figure?

I'm happy to leave it at that, not wishing to skew the thread off-track, suffice to say - if someone claims 'inside knowledge' and they are bluffing, isn't it best to call their bluff?

 

[JonathanD]

I asked him what year he left, no names or anything sensitive. Coupled with his use of incorrect terminology... go figure?

I'm happy to leave it at that, not wishing to skew the thread off-track, suffice to say - if someone claims 'inside knowledge' and they are bluffing, isn't it best to call their bluff?

It's OK to question that knowledge, but best to avoid accusations as inside knowledge gets twisted, confused and forgotten the same as anything else. But back on track. It seems that it is true that RM was involved in some way. Be interesting to find out more.

 

[Harley]

It's OK to question that knowledge, but best to avoid accusations as inside knowledge gets twisted, confused and forgotten the same as anything else.

He wouldn't forget the name of his unit or what year he left.

He sent me an unsolicited email asserting to have been in the 'royal parachute regiment' for nine years and asking me for further info on the police search op. I simply asked him what year he left and he came over all coy and secretive.

Totally off-thread now and of little use anyway, so Good Night All

 

[Ahjno]

:Thinkingo





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