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Discussion in 'Bushcraft and survival skills' started by JamesThoro, Aug 2, 2017.
Pretty sure he used a penknife in The Shootist and probably others too, if a penknife counts...
Sorry but I still think my 2nd to last paragraph makes sense, it does to me at least. To me it's a completely different issue to rights and freedoms.
What I might advise a 16yr old and anybody else who reads this thread may be different to what I would advise someone in private in real life. For any number of reasons. In private I'm assuming I know more about you, what you're like, what you do, how responsible you are, where you live etc etc. I'm then giving specific tailored advice to you. On the forums I cannot know anything about those things so I'm giving general advice not only to the OP but to anyone else reading the thread. I cannot in good conscience advise anything that I believe may cause them trouble no matter how small the risk. Also I personally may take risks with regards the letter of the law that I would not then advocate for anyone else too. Just because I believe that I am legal in carrying some tools in public sometimes because I have good reason, does not then give me the right to tell other people to take the same risks.
Personally I don't think knife fear is irrational. I was a victim of an attempted mugging by some older kids with pocket knives when I was a kid - they wanted my bike and kept cutting at my hands on the handlebars until I got away. In Cardiff in the last 10 years there have been dozens of attacks with knives and a number of deaths. Just last year a couple were stabbed to death in the town centre. To be fair I don't think many of the culprits were bushcrafters with peukkos but that's not the point.
The law may be an bottom, you may disagree with it and even personally disregard it privately, but as a community we should remember why the laws are there and respect them when giving out knife carrying advice.
*** i dispair at this thread i really do. no-one has broken any laws or advised anyone to do so!
I refuse to hide in shame whilst obeying the law in a reasonable situation and will never advise anyone else to do so. Everyone advocating hiding a normal activity is part of the problem....i also refuse to live my life in fear
I am well aware there is knife crime (did you think i wasnt?) I'v lived in a major and violent city
Leaving this now while i cool off
To echo what's been said, what law will be broken carrying a knife across the road in a belt sheath?
I'm sorry if it seemed I suggested or implied anyone was breaking the law or advising anyone to break the law, not sure if I did explicitly but it was not my intention.
I'm also sorry for offending Sunndog because I find much of what he says regarding civil liberties absolutely correct. I think if we were discussing this around the campfire we'd probably be in total agreement.
Please forgive if my meaning is unclear, sometimes in order to try to say exactly what I mean and to avoid any misunderstanding (and because I sometimes struggle to stay general since exceptions can always be found) my writing can be become convoluted.
I'll try again but try to be clearer.
I believe that we should be innocent until proven guilty. I should be able to carry a knife or other bladed tool for bushcraft in public as long as I'm not using it offensively. As a law abiding responsible adult I should be respected and to be able to carry a bladed tool and not be assumed I'm about to mug someone or do something stupid.
To me the law does not make much sense for people like me, it only makes sense for urban areas with gang violence.
I have a driver's license and drive a car (which is a much more dangerous weapon pontentially), there are laws in place for dealing with me if I drive erratically or dangerously.
The same should be true of knives (without the license), I should be able to carry a knife and only come under police scrutiny if I ever do anything erratic or stupid with it.
However I also understand that for a subset of society a knife is not a tool but becomes a weapon. The police need to be able to do something when they come across people who are carrying knives with the intention of using them as weapons. Hence the knife laws. In order to dissuade people from carrying knives as weapons, it became illegal to carry knives except for some restrictions. Obviously this doesn't automatically stop knife crime, it just means that there are less knives being carried by people who may be tempted to use a knife as a weapon (one of the reasons for the prevalence in so called 'dangerous' dog breeds).
So I disagree with the law as it impacts on me and could probably debate a better one but the fact it is the law as it stands.
Therefore I am left with following the law as it stands. I'm no expert but I believe the law allows me to carry a bladed tool in public if I am transporting it to private property in order to be able to use it.
This in my mind is where it gets tricky. Although I may be legally allowed to carry the blade on my belt as a tool whilst travelling across a public road to private property, or indeed even further. I think in doing so I am inviting far more scrutiny than necessary. A police officer may spot it and want to ask me about it, may take offense or find my reasons invalid and I'm left with a headache. A member of the public horrified by tabloid newspaper stories may phone the police complaining about the large man carrying a knife on his belt again leading to the possibility of another encounter with the law and a headache.
Now depending on who I was, where I was and my reasons for carrying the blade I might want to risk confrontations over carrying the knife. That is my right as a citizen in a 'free' country. But I don't think I could with a clear conscience advise anyone else to do the same as I would not want to be responsible for anyone having their tool confiscated or for having a caution or any other consequences that may arrise.
I think here is where Sunndog and I mostly disagree. I think as a community we should be like Hippocrates and 'first do no harm'. I think we should always advocate the safest course of action to other members especially younger or less experienced members. To my mind that means in this instance we give the benefit of the doubt to the possibility that the OP may get into a situation in which police are called. If he carries the knife on his belt the chances of a confrontation and possible confiscation or appearing before a magistrate to explain everything are very low, but must still be higher than if he carried the knife in a bag. There is no great hardship in carrying the knife in a bag and putting it back on his belt after he crossed the road.
The other thing we seem to disagree about is that if we hide our bladed tools in bags whilst in public we encourage the fear of knives as weapons when people come across them, instead of people becoming used to just seeing knives as tools on belts. I have much less of a feel for this and find it compelling up to a point. However it's definitely not something I would wish to test personally, or something I can advocate for others to test. Being able to belt carry a knife is not something I need or wish to do. I am happy with the current state of play. I carry pocket knives daily and if/when I wish to carry a bladed tool for bushcraft, I first make sure I have a good reason and then make sure it is sheathed and in a bag until I wish to use it (predominantly on private land).
Last year I walked through the village with my scythe on my shoulder. Common sense told me to hide my mora in my bag or there might be trouble.
I don't know why it's called "common" sense, and speaking without any, if the OP can't decide he should just throw it across the road.
Have I helped, and can we all be friends
No other way to carry a scythe, I carried one likewise down to my allotment through my dodgy estate, but I had a piece of cardboard taped firmly around the blade until I got there, and now there it stays. (until some blighter knicks it, like they did my last one)
But were you wearing a long black hooded robe whilst carrying your scythe over your shoulder?
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Sharpened on the light of the new day?
Haven't read them for a while but that has to be Pratchett..
Being an old git & Not wanting to get in to a knife politics or debate about law.... I would just like to state a few personal facts about the olden days when carrying a knife was common place for most young adolescent boys, from the age of about 8 & through my teen years & beyond I was and still am "A KNIFE CARRIER" we all had reasonably big knives back then, but not for any other reason than lets not kid ourselves ALL young boys have a fascination for knives for what ever reason. However for today's adolescent boys their reasons seem to be very different from how It was for me, Yes it was cool to have a nice big Knife, comfortable to wear on a belt But nobody seem to be that concerned about it.
& when in the woods as we often were they became useful tools... for making weapons like bows & arrows to hurt each other with, ( in play of course ), I openly & proudly carried My 7" Bowie knife ( a Birthday pressie from me dad) on my belt ( mostly when in the woods or when on holiday with my parents all summer long ) & I also had a 7" stiletto folder lock knife which was EDC carried in my jacket pocket, the only thing I had ever used that for was gutting fish. Anyway I digress, I went through "Scotland's first knife amnesty" it was announced 8 Feb 2006 & launched in May, during that time I was involved in a miner bump in my car.... long story short. the police spotted my stiletto on the rear parcel shelf of my car, it must have fallen out when my jacket was last flung in the back... Ah brilliant! I thought I had lost that, I exclaimed! I could see by the look on his face he was waiting for an explanation I passed it off as a fishing knife & he seemed happy with that but questioned the absence of any fishing gear I explained I had a mate who liked to fish but didn't like gutting the fish he caught so that was my job when I went along... He then asked me to remove it to the boot & keep it there & he matter of factly in polite conversation asked me to consider the knife amnesty when he saw my sheathed & still belted Bowie knife already in the boot. For me though Knife crime was a rare occurrence that happened in Glasgow... & not on my doorstep... anyway he concluded his tragic cop duties. & I drove off...
Back to the OP when I was 16 back in the day I would not have given it a second thought, & would have been blatant about it & openly carried it across the road, but the OP doesn't live back in the day, & if I was the OP in this day & age I would definitely go covert so as not to bring undue attention its no big deal really.
The Basic reasons for carrying a knife could be considered much the same, but attitudes towards carriers has definitely changed as has the way in which some of today's adolescence chose to use them as weapons.
My point is I grew up in a space where most everybody I hung around with sometimes openly sometimes covertly we all carried Knives, (it seemed like More people carried back then) & Knife crime seemed less, & we never turned in to murderers or terrorists? I it was still frowned upon by the police even before the am-nasty & if you looked a bit dodgy & you were stopped by the police for any reason with a knife there was always the possibility it MIGHT be confiscated...
So what has happened with our Kids?
Was the knife amnesty, to knives like putting a ban on a movie, is to films?advertises it, makes it more popular & makes it a must see.
Initially a good idea short term, but in reality long term all it did was actually glamorize & weaponize the Knife & as others have suggested put fuel on the fire for anybody who wanted to use it as a status symbol or badge of bravery for those with terroristic tendances...
It seems to me like that is exactly what happened with knives.
Anybody want do the research into Knife crime figures pre & post Feb 2006?
Has it kept on escalating either steadily or possibly even more quickly since the start of 2006 or has it got better?
Except that in real life most cowboys didn't actually wear a handgun. Soldiers on the other hand (cavalry soldiers anyway) carried their weapons similar to that: saber on the left and handgun on the right, but they drew both as a crossdraw (pistol into their left hand and sa ber into their right) as the saber was the cavalryman's primary weapon.
It's funny because a crossbow that can shoot a bolt through a skull is legal. The law is weird.
Yes, but is it legal to carry that crossbow around?
Welcome to the forum James Thoro. Anyone who can generate so many replies with such a stimulating question is just what we need.
I have only been stopped once when wearing a belt knife, and that was by a gun toting guard on a university campus. We used to take our sheath knives to school when wearing our Scout uniforms! Ah, nostalgia!
Yesterday I bought a cheap kitchen knife in an Oxford department store without being asked for proof of age. Surely the shop assistant was breaking the law: how was she to know that I will be 76 next week?
Keep on posting young man. You're the sort that keeps us grandpas cheerful by knowing that our enthusiasms and values will not die when we do.
And there I was hoping that this thread had died quietly, having more than answered the original question, and rambled through rancorous debate. It didn't seem to bring out the best in people, and it would be a shame if it were resurrected like that.
Thread locked. Someone could not leave well alone.