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New trespass laws......

Discussion in 'Other Chatter' started by stevec, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. stevec

    stevec Full Member

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    So it would seem that the government is aiming to criminalise any trespass but is aiming to go for people intending to reside. The questions posed in the government papers are along the lines of 'do we want to only criminalise trespass if there is intent to reside'
    Article is an option piece by George monybot in the guardian, so obviously it's left slanted. However it's like the kinder trespass didn't happen. I'll link it in a moment
    https://www.theguardian.com/comment...Uh0XwQLZcPQAicETCC5jB7q0pwK7jsfF-VgY4hZv56EVc
     
  2. Mesquite

    Mesquite Anyone for sailing?

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    As interesting as this is and potentially affect our hobby folks are going to have to be very careful in making sure this thread doesn't become a political debate
     
  3. stevec

    stevec Full Member

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    Indeed, I don't like politics, and I can't abide politicians, I posted as I recall a thread recently about the legal aspects of having a knife or axe when camping on land without the permission of the landowner.
     
  4. oldtimer

    oldtimer Full Member

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    Politics cannot be divorced from life. The issue should be to avoid party politics. Personally, I find the assertion that if an article appears in the Guardian is must be "left slanted" implies a party political stance.

    The point that Monbiot makes that will affect us is that a law designed for one purpose can be used for another. The knife laws are an example. His warning is that next time you are caught stealth camping you could end up with a criminal record. If people like us don't engage in debate on this, who will?

    Do the wise words "It doesn't matter who is right but what is right" ring a bell?
     
    #4 oldtimer, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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  5. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I understand that by making trespassing a criminal offense rather than a civil offense, the police can arrest the culprit, something they can not do today.

    A change of no importance if you ask for permission from the land owner.
     
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  6. stevec

    stevec Full Member

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    As it happens the potential for this to be applied to stop environmental activism is what concerns me the most.
    Sheffield has recently experienced a ppi where the council has been removing street trees, and has been using some rather interesting laws to get it done. Things are changing I hope, however it has somewhat devided the city
     
  7. Bishop

    Bishop Full Member

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    Definitely one to keep an eye on, though surely for it to work as intended everywhere then the owners would have to on file with the Land Registry. After all the police are going to want a way of checking and with some 15% of England & Wales still having elusive ownership details gives a little wiggle room.

    Unregistered Land Map
     
  8. demographic

    demographic Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Nice one about the unregistered land, theres a lot thats been in the same trust ownership that its not updated on the land register.
    Another version of that map I found recently (I just like maps, always have) shows some of the land owned by the MOD (in dark grey, almost black) the Crown estate (purple) the RSPB (in blue) and so on.
    http://map.whoownsengland.org/


    The most interesting one for me was the dark red which to my uneducated eyes seems to be the map of tax dodgers, offshore trust funds, foreign kleptocrats and so on.
    From what I've read, some of those patches of land in red were mentioned in the Paradise papers and Panama papers leaks which is well worth a google as well.

    There's a Who owns Scotland map as well which seems to have better coverage, click on an area and theres a bit to the right of the page that says Click here for more info.
    As far as I'm aware, the Scottish parliament introduced better regulation to lessen obscure land ownership information.
    http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/search.php
     
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  9. oldtimer

    oldtimer Full Member

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    Useful maps Demographic. I note the Church Commissioners don't figure. Sore point here as they own all the land round our village and threaten to turn farmland into urban jungle.
     
  10. Herman30

    Herman30 Nomad

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    Once again, I´m happy to be in a nordic country where all the land is free to roam on thanks to the "everyman´s right"-law. Even camping is allowed for a night or two. Firemaking is not allowed, well only with permission of landowner.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
     
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  11. demographic

    demographic Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Aye, whilst putting restrictive covenants into the deeds of any property they sell which is transferred with the deeds.
    Basically you can't do much with the land you buy off them but they can do what they want on the land they still own beside it.

    Got a mate who had that problem and they own a LOT of property round here.

    I'd be interested to see a map that showed their land if anyones got access to one.

    Id really like to see land registration tightened up to increase transparency, kind of like whats happening to some extent in Scotland as I believe transparency increases honesty and accountability but I'm not sure it will happen anytime soon.

    I've likely strayed well off the tresspass law thread here so I'll try to be more on topic.
     
  12. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    #12 Janne, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  13. Alan De Enfield

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    Scotland is not quite so 'free' as many think, the Government's proposal is actually looking to align England / Wales with Scotland.

    Scotland has had a Trespass Act since 1865. The relevant part reads :

    Every person who lodges in any premises, or occupies or encamps on any land, being private property, without the consent and permission of the owner or legal occupier of such premises or land, and every person who encamps or lights a fire on or near any road or enclosed or cultivated land, or in or near any plantation, without the consent and permission of the owner or legal occupier of such road, land, or plantation shall be guilty of an offence punishable as herein-after provided.


    (Maximum fine currently £200)
     
  14. oldtimer

    oldtimer Full Member

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    You may not agree with him but George Monbiot is a distinguished and respected British environmental scientist and writer. Describing him as a "hack" is a bit like describing you as a "barber-surgeon" .
     
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  15. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    It is not a question if I agree or not, but he twisted the facts to suit his agenda.
    Read the link I posted and compare to his article.
    Journalists have a responsibility to truthfully inform.
    That article is more like disinformation, full of lies.

    Read my link! Takes only a minute or two.




    I would have been a lousy barber.
     
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  16. Paul_B

    Paul_B Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Oh ask farmers what they think of George Monbiot the hack after his biased channel 4 documentary. Plenty of complaints to Ofcom over it's alleged breaches of guidelines. I think one man's respected talking head is another man's hack or crank.

    Personally i think he's got a message to give so obviously he's going to only present information supporting that message. Same as every other talking head.
     
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  17. Paul_B

    Paul_B Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Were you a good surgeon or was there a reason you became a dentist? ;);):)

    Seriously, have you tried being a barber? Are modern surgeons less able to cut hair and shave people now or were they just barbers and not very good surgeons back in the day?

    Sorry my curiosity has gone right off topic.
     
  18. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    To be a good Surgeon, and a good Barber, you needed two skills:
    To be able to hone a blade to a fantastic sharpness, plus a steady hand.

    I am almost 59. If I stretch out my hand, my finger tips are rock solid.
    The honing of a blade I am not so sure about!
     
  19. Tony

    Tony White bear (Admin)
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    The possible change to trespass being criminal is something to definitely keep an eye on, in itself I can see how it would be useful some instances but in many others it could be used as an un-needed club.
    Wild campers could be put under a lot of pressure from this and it's bound to impact us as bushcrafters...
     
  20. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
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    That's not only very dated but not an accurate representation of the reality. The world moves along :)

    https://www.askthe.scottish.police.uk/content/Q56.htm

    https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/public-access-to-land/
     
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