Is there a technical definition of a Tall Ship.

[Tengu]

Now Tengu here has no time for them...the vessels of the future will be Junk rigged.

Been to Charlestown harbour (Charming but no doubt not so in the Tourist season...)

Was promised a TALL SHIP by the Company `Square Sails`

But the vessel I was shown was a 30s built Norwegian vessel...No square rig.

Does it count or shall I complain?

 

[Janne]

Was the mast tall?
If yes, they can silently point to the mast, and think : DUH!

 

[Fadcode]

If it's bigger than you then it's tall.

 

[Broch]

Now Tengu here has no time for them...the vessels of the future will be Junk rigged.

Been to Charlestown harbour (Charming but no doubt not so in the Tourist season...)

Was promised a TALL SHIP by the Company `Square Sails`

But the vessel I was shown was a 30s built Norwegian vessel...No square rig.

Does it count or shall I complain?

I think the ship in Charlestown (which I visited last year) is the same class as the Lilla Dan which is a training ship and definitely classed as a tall ship.

 

[saxonaxe]

There is a regular gathering of large sailing vessels at an event called "The Tall Ships Race". Some of the vessels are sail training vessels such as the Kruzenshtern ( I haven't got a Russian keyboard so I can't spell her name properly..She was German... and she's a 4 masted Barque, not a ship) but the fact is that as real sailing ships have decreased in numbers, smaller vessels have been included in The Tall Ships register for the event.
I suspect the vessel you saw is an old Baltic Trader of which many hundreds existed up to and just after World War 2. In her day she would have been considered small, now she's treated as a...Tall Ship...
I guarantee that if you expressed your disappointment to the people at Charlestown Harbour they would say.."Well she takes part in the Tall Ships gathering...

To be Ship rigged she should be square rigged on all masts. The Kruzenshtern has 4 masts, the aftermost mast, the Jigger mast, is rigged fore and aft so she's a 4 masted Barque, not a Ship..
Many Baltic Traders were Gaff Ketch rigged.

 

[Broch]

Here you go - photographed at Charlestown in June last year

 

[Broch]

Oops, that's the 'boat' on the other side of the dock; the Lilla Dan type ship is the 'Kajsamoor' which is a two-masted ketch.

 

[Janne]

Aaahh... Swedish!

So that is where all those beautiful Baltic route ships went.....

The Russian Tall Ship was stolen by the Soviets, but ’modern history’ tells us the Germans gave her to them.

Not a Tall Ship per se, more a yacht, but there is a beauty belonging to an English lady, all Mahogany and Oak, that sometimes sails up to Lofoten.
I think ( not sure 100%) home harbour is on Isle of Wight ( or Man?)

All those ships are murderously beautiful.

 

[santaman2000]

There is a regular gathering of large sailing vessels at an event called "The Tall Ships Race". Some of the vessels are sail training vessels such as the Kruzenshtern ( I haven't got a Russian keyboard so I can't spell her name properly..She was German... and she's a 4 masted Barque, not a ship) but the fact is that as real sailing ships have decreased in numbers, smaller vessels have been included in The Tall Ships register for the event.
I suspect the vessel you saw is an old Baltic Trader of which many hundreds existed up to and just after World War 2. In her day she would have been considered small, now she's treated as a...Tall Ship...
I guarantee that if you expressed your disappointment to the people at Charlestown Harbour they would say.."Well she takes part in the Tall Ships gathering...

To be Ship rigged she should be square rigged on all masts. The Kruzenshtern has 4 masts, the aftermost mast, the Jigger mast, is rigged fore and aft so she's a 4 masted Barque, not a Ship..
Many Baltic Traders were Gaff Ketch rigged.

So what’s the difference between a ship and a barque? Is it just the size? This is what I think of when I think of “tall ships” but she is indeed a barque (and original German built if I remember correctly) The USCGC Eagle:
https://images.app.goo.gl/FwMCZbVLScfjr1598

 

[Janne]

Ship is a watercraft larger than a boat.
A barque is a specific type of a ship.

A Tall Ship is a ship with tall masts. Not all sailing ships have these tall masts.

Most Tall Ships have traditional rigging and sails.

I got this info from an eminent marine engineer tonight.

 

[saxonaxe]

So what’s the difference between a ship and a barque?

Basically the distinction between a vessel which is 'Ship rigged' and a Barque is made by how the sails are carried on her masts.
This vessel is Ship rigged. She carries sails on 'Yards' or spars which run across the vessel on all her masts.


This is the USS Eagle, she is Barque rigged. On the aftermost mast, the Mizzen mast, her sails are carried on wire stays which run fore and aft...lengthwise in other words.


Note in the first photo that there is a fore and aft sail on the Mizzen mast, (the aftermost mast of the 3) that sail was also carried on Barques, it helped with steering. The deciding factor is whether the vessel carries square sails on yards on all her masts which designates her as a ship or not.

Having said all that, the full explanation is much more lengthy, but that's the basic facts which is all I have time for as I'm off to my own boat, and she's Sloop rigged...so don't start me off again..

 

[Tengu]

Phew!

I am confused.

The vessel I am actualy reffering to is the Kadsjamoor, which I went on. (There was also that Ruth and Phoenix which has spars and is definatley a tall ship)

(There was a guy working aloft on the Phoenix with no saftey harness...progress, eh? This is why we no longer have tall ships, people (Except young adventurers and I knew someone who was crippled that way) value their lives these days.)

A lot of these Baltic traders were from the Aland Isles, yes? (spelt that all wrong) One of the last users of square riggers. Interesting history what little I have heard of it.

 

[Janne]

Åland are a group of islands between Sweden and Finland. Traditionally fishing and the sea gave thrm the livelihood. Soil is not the best, lots of exposed rocks.

Swedish speaking, they wanted to join Sweden in 1919 from the newly liberated Finland, but Finland said NO and made them autonomous instead.

The Baltic traders came from all the countries around the Baltic, Åland included. In the old days the waterways were the highways, that is where all transport happened. Much quicker than overland.
Historically Gotland was the trading centre in Scandinavia.
Åland was quite poor, even with (poor) Scandinavian measures, so theywere quite late switching to more modern designs.
And their ships were quite small, as the seas are fairly shallow between the islands.

 

[Janne]

Internet says that the ship you went on, Kajsamoor, was built in 1939 in Norway and is registered in Estonia.
She is a two masted trading ketch. Other sites say she is a schooner.

 

[santaman2000]

Basically the distinction between a vessel which is 'Ship rigged' and a Barque is made by how the sails are carried on her masts.
This vessel is Ship rigged. She carries sails on 'Yards' or spars which run across the vessel on all her masts.


This is the USS Eagle, she is Barque rigged. On the aftermost mast, the Mizzen mast, her sails are carried on wire stays which run fore and aft...lengthwise in other words.


Note in the first photo that there is a fore and aft sail on the Mizzen mast, (the aftermost mast of the 3) that sail was also carried on Barques, it helped with steering. The deciding factor is whether the vessel carries square sails on yards on all her masts which designates her as a ship or not.

Having said all that, the full explanation is much more lengthy, but that's the basic facts which is all I have time for as I'm off to my own boat, and she's Sloop rigged...so don't start me off again..

 

[santaman2000]

Basically the distinction between a vessel which is 'Ship rigged' and a Barque is made by how the sails are carried on her masts.
This vessel is Ship rigged. She carries sails on 'Yards' or spars which run across the vessel on all her masts.


This is the USS Eagle, she is Barque rigged. On the aftermost mast, the Mizzen mast, her sails are carried on wire stays which run fore and aft...lengthwise in other words.


Note in the first photo that there is a fore and aft sail on the Mizzen mast, (the aftermost mast of the 3) that sail was also carried on Barques, it helped with steering. The deciding factor is whether the vessel carries square sails on yards on all her masts which designates her as a ship or not.

Having said all that, the full explanation is much more lengthy, but that's the basic facts which is all I have time for as I'm off to my own boat, and she's Sloop rigged...so don't start me off again..

Thanks for that explanation. I think I have the gist of that now, although I’ll likely muddle it again later.

The Eagle isn’t a “USS” vessel though. That prefix is reserved for Navy ships here. The Eagle is a Coast Guard vessel and her prefix is “USCGC.” As somebody said about bargues earlier (I believe it was you) she is indeed used as a training vessel for Coast Guard Academy midshipmen.

 

[Janne]

Do they build Tall Ships anymore?
Most seem to be vintage?

 

[saxonaxe]

Do they build Tall Ships anymore?
Most seem to be vintage?

The last British one to be built that I know of Janne, is a Training Ship TS Royalist. She was built in 2014 as a replacement for an earlier vessel of the same name. Royalist is about 112 feet long with a 24 foot beam. She's rigged as a Brig and carries something like 650 square yards of sail.
The Sir Winston Churchill was a training vessel, rigged as a Schooner but she was sold to a private owner about 1999- 2000.
I saw her in a Greek port when I sailed into there about 2005, Kalamata I think it was, and she looked a mess. Festooned with satelite dishes and fancy comms kit, so much so her rig had been butchered to make way for all the techno gear on deck. Private owner, a Greek International wheeler dealer I think.

There are a few modern built tall ships used as luxury cruise vessels, many of them down your way in the Caribbean. A few years ago I was laying at anchor in Port-de France bay in Martinique when this shiney white Barque arrived crowded with rich tourists. As part of the thrill for the passengers the crew sailed her (engine assisted) to within about a half mile offshore then someone pressed a button somewhere and every sail automatically roller furled onto it's yard. Not one person went aloft to furl a sail!!
There probably wasn't a real sailor aboard her....

 

[santaman2000]

The last British one to be built that I know of Janne, is a Training Ship TS Royalist. She was built in 2014 as a replacement for an earlier vessel of the same name. Royalist is about 112 feet long with a 24 foot beam. She's rigged as a Brig and carries something like 650 square yards of sail.
The Sir Winston Churchill was a training vessel, rigged as a Schooner but she was sold to a private owner about 1999- 2000.
I saw her in a Greek port when I sailed into there about 2005, Kalamata I think it was, and she looked a mess. Festooned with satelite dishes and fancy comms kit, so much so her rig had been butchered to make way for all the techno gear on deck. Private owner, a Greek International wheeler dealer I think.

There are a few modern built tall ships used as luxury cruise vessels, many of them down your way in the Caribbean. A few years ago I was laying at anchor in Port-de France bay in Martinique when this shiney white Barque arrived crowded with rich tourists. As part of the thrill for the passengers the crew sailed her (engine assisted) to within about a half mile offshore then someone pressed a button somewhere and every sail automatically roller furled onto it's yard. Not one person went aloft to furl a sail!!
There probably wasn't a real sailor aboard her....

I’d still rather take a cruise on one of these than the humongous floating cities that pass for cruise ships nowadays.

 

[Wayland]

I like tall ships but I like them best like this.