Hiding pics containing dead animals

[Martyn]

..in fact many newspapers carry much more disturbing images on the front page ( and no i dont mean the sun) such as pictures from iraq or the asian tsunami

Not sure British tabloids are the best example to cite for standard setting. But I take your point. However, newspapers are unable to provide thier pictures as clickable links, it's in yer face or nothing. We have the luxury of offering choice.

just how far are we supposed to take this?

Take what?

All we are talking about is putting a picture as a url rather than inline. A large number of people do get offended by seeing pictures of dead animals. You can tell them that it shouldn't upset them and they shouldn't get offended, you can spring pictures of gratuitous blood letting upon them, but that is unlikely to change anything. People have different opinions and some strong feelings on the matter. They probably always will. I'm just suggesting that maybe people should consider that when posting pictures.

Nothing is being censored, no liberties are being taken away, no one is saying you cant post these pictures, no one is hiding anything, just a suggestion that they be posted as links, rather than in line. A suggestion that you give people the choice.

Here is a picture of a butchered and roasted gorillas...
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/monkey-bush-02.jpg
Click if you want to. If you dont want to see, dont click!

Why is this a problem?

 

[Abbe Osram]

Take what?

All we are talking about is putting a picture as a url rather than inline. A large number of people do get offended by seeing pictures of dead animals. You can tell them that it shouldn't upset them and they shouldn't get offended, you can spring pictures of gratuitous blood letting upon them, but that is unlikely to change anything. People have different opinions and some strong feelings on the matter. They probably always will. I'm just suggesting that maybe people should consider that when posting pictures.

Nothing is being censored, no liberties are being taken away, no one is saying you cant post these pictures, just a suggestion that they be posted as links, rather than in line. Why is this a problem?

Hi Marty,

It’s not difficult to understand him. What is if I would ask you that all people showing pictures of there knifes should hide them or link them with an url? Would you grand me that wish? I guess you would think my request would be quite weird. Is it because you like knifes and see nothing wrong in them? But what if I would tell you that, every time I see a picture on an BCUK thread showing a knife, I feel very bad having seen my friend getting killed by a knife. Would you not say, Abbe I understand your feelings but …… or would you be on my side asking the entire BCUK to link their pictures to an url in the future, so I am not having such a bad time looking at them.

Cheers
Abbe

 

[Tantalus]

i dont mean to sound so agressive, but andy wasnt even asking for himself he was asking because he was worried about people looking at his screen while he was in the uni computer room

i already asked if it had caused some kind of problem but he has not responded yet

as for british tabloids, first there are few british broadsheets, and second, i regularly read news in german greek french and spanish as well as english from many places where english is spoken. They are just as likely if not more to post pictures of tsunami victims or iraqui mass graves as any british tabliod

point is i wouldnt put my newspaper away cos somebody was reading it over my shoulder, in fact i would tell them where to go if they started commenting on which bits i should read or look at

and lastly , if we cant talk about fishing or game, and share a few pics, in a little section of this bushcraft forum then where the heck can we?

Tant

 

[tomtom]

if we cant talk about fishing or game, and share a few pics, in a little section of this bushcraft forum then where the heck can we?

no one said anything about not talking about it.. its simply been sugested that pictures are hidden.. it costs nothing and i my make fellow forumites happy.. we are a community and it certainly costs nothing to do this for them.. so why not?

 

[Martyn]

Hi Marty,

It’s not difficult to understand him. What is if I would ask you that all people showing pictures of there knifes should hide them or link them with an url? Would you grand me that wish? I guess you would think my request would be quite weird. Is it because you like knifes and see nothing wrong in them? But what if I would tell you that, every time I see a picture on an BCUK thread showing a knife, I feel very bad having seen my friend getting killed by a knife. Would you not say, Abbe I understand your feelings but …… or would you be on my side asking the entire BCUK to link their pictures to an url in the future, so I am not having such a bad time looking at them.

Cheers
Abbe

If it was just you asking for this Abbe, I would put it down to you being wierd.

If a lot of people were asking for this, we would have to consider it more seriously.

No one has ever asked for this (and in all seriousness, I doubt they ever will).

If you are going to make comparisons, you need to compare apples with apples. Many people have problems with seeing dead animals posted on the open forum. Not everone is a hunter and it is a real issue not an imaginary one (we wouldn't be discussing it if it weren't real). We have messages from parents who ask that images are removed because they dont want thier children seeing them.

To turn the question around, why do you want to force images upon people, some of whom find them distateful or gratuotous? If you know that pictures of dead aminal are offensive and upsetting to some people, why would you want to make them look?

If there is an issue on the forums that is causing problems for a number of people, and this issue is easily resolved by exercising a little consideration for those with different tastes, shouldn't we offer them this consideration?

 

[Martyn]

and lastly , if we cant talk about fishing or game, and share a few pics, in a little section of this bushcraft forum then where the heck can we?

Tant

That's a bit alarmist there Tant. As tomtom has rightly said, no one is or has asked you to not discuss this, no one has asked you dont post pictures, just that you post them as links rather than inline. I think you are taking what is essentially an issue of courtesy to some members who get offended by seeing such images and dramatising it into an issue of censorship.

 

[Tantalus]

martyn if you read andys very first post

the people who may or may not be getting upset, are the ones working in the uni computer lab around andy, and i suspect none of them are members

i am as you know quite happy to discuss what members do and do not like , but when it become "what somebody might inadvertently see on a members screen" then i fear the connection has been lost

andy himself seems quite happy to accept that in certain sections of this forum there will be discussions and pictures of nature taking its course

there is nothing better (except perhaps hands on) than a skinning adn cleaning pictorial

likewise leather tanning, with all the processes

i understand members get offended by this stuff, this is why there is part of the forum set aside for just these discussions and pics

it seems to me a great shame to try and limit the one area where we can post pics of this nature, should be changed , not for a member, but for someone peeking at a members computer while he browses

i dont think i really said anything new in this post, it is just another step in the direction of political correctness,

ever wonder how some of the old country crafts and skills died out?

they were made redundant by plastic packets in tescos and plastic buckets in poundstretchers?

sorry i aint buying in to it all

if this forum is not the place to talk this kind of outdoor activity then i am in the wrong place

there is more than one way to skin a rabbit

I for one would like to be able to discuss this here

Tant

 

[Martyn]

martyn if you read andys very first post

the people who may or may not be getting upset, are the ones working in the uni computer lab around andy, and i suspect none of them are members

i am as you know quite happy to discuss what members do and do not like , but when it become "what somebody might inadvertently see on a members screen" then i fear the connection has been lost

The subject of posting pictures of dead animals has been raised many times before. Andy's comments are just the latest. Tony long ago told us moderators to put any threads showing pictures of animal preparation in the approprite food/game forums. Tony long ago made it public knowledge that threads dealing with such should be confined to those forums. Andy also said the he didnt want other students looking, not that other students were offended - and Andy is a member.

The issue here, is if you really must post pictures of dead animals outside the fodd & game forums, would it be possible for people to post them as links rather than inline images.

if this forum is not the place to talk this kind of outdoor activity then i am in the wrong place

Mate, this conversation just got pointless. Aside from putting words in my mouth, how am I supposed to respond to that?

 

[Tony]

Pictures of dead animals, gutted animals, chopped up animals should go in the appropriate forum.

It is a hard one, The article on making Jerky has lots of shots of meat, Ray's TV stuff has him gutting and chopping meat etc

Sometimes it does seem appropriate that an example is shown outside a context that puts it into the appropriate forum, as in RB's example of using a knife.

The bottom line is that there's forums for most things and things should be put into the appropriate one, something that's not in the right one should be flagged to the mods so that they can put it straight. It happens and it's part of life on the forum, now and then you'll see something that you personally don't like, if it's in the wrong place let us know, if it's in the right place then you're in the wrong place, so move on to another forum, bcuk has many of them.

The key is, put the stuff in the right forum…..

Sorted

 

[Andy]

The pic that made me start this (computer tech people who are meant to moniter what I'm on comments on it when they came into the room) was in the members pics thread where somebody has (or had) a picture of them holding up a dead animal with the comment "here is me with a friend". I saw no purpose for showing this as a picture of him was in the post before and the post didn't give any help on anything bushcrafty.
In the case of rappidboy doing a review of a knife I agree that for many the use of the knife for meat prep is important and a review should try to cover this. (When I reviewed Shings field knife I passed the knife over to my dad to cover this section so that it wasn't missed out). The image was later hidden and a warning given. Everyonebody is happy (or so I thought).
If we want to start making comparisons between meat and knives maybe we should let pictures of strippers etc. Of course if I did this I'd get banned (rightly so) as it offends some people. I'm sure you all know people are naked under their ventile. Maybe some people want to see "nature taking it's course" with people.

I must go as there is a fire alarm going off

 

[Abbe Osram]

To turn the question around, why do you want to force images upon people, some of whom find them distateful or gratuotous? If you know that pictures of dead aminal are, why would you want to make them look?

If there is an issue on the forums that is causing problems for a number of people, and this issue is easily resolved by exercising a little consideration for those with different tastes, shouldn't we offer them this consideration?

Hi Martyn,
Good question, I will try to answer as well as I can. As it is always difficult to express oneself clearly enough in another langue than my own, but I will try anyhow because I find the subject a very important one:

I don’t want to force people to do anything, everyone should be free to express himself as he wants, has an opinion as he wants and do what he wants. So I am giving a lot of freedom to everyone around me. If someone expresses himself here on the forum with his vegetarian views, I am ok with that, as long as he doesn’t want to force me in to something. I would not try to control him by crying out that his views are offensive to me, because we are here not on VBCUK (Vegetarian BushCraft UK) but on BCUK etc.

Why are they then asking us for self-censorship, if we don’t bother about their views? Yes, it is self-censorship you are asking us to do. I don’t like to hide the pictures because I don’t think that there is anything to hide. I am not doing some criminal acts, which I only can show to some other perverts like me if they are clicking on my picture urls.

Here in this thread we where only talking about pictures and you could rightly wonder why we make such a fuss about censorship. And you rightly could say that you don’t want censorship only restriction on our part and some understanding and compassion for the people with another view. But is that true? Or is there more to come? Oh yes! I was having an opinion in another topic called something like: "What we don’t like in Bushcraft" and I voiced the opinion that I don’t like, if there is to much knife fetishism on the forum, I got a PM from Hooddoo telling me off and using the exact words like you used here in picture thread. He said that I am "offensive and upsetting to some people", in our PM discussion he got quite insulting and out of place for an moderator. The phrase: “Offensive and upsetting some people” feels like being the weapon of censorship used at free will by anyone holding a particular view and not wanting other people having another opinion. Here in our case the pictures of dead animals in Hoodoos case my views about Knife fetishism.

Yes, you are right that the problem is not an imaginary one, why would we talk about it otherwise. But the question still holds, what’s next on the line of censorship? As we know there are people with many fears, even the fears are real still their problem is out of proportion. Its one thing for me if someone doesn’t like to eat meat but its another thing if he wants to change the world around him trying to fix his fears and hopes.

Are we going to see in the future movies from Ray not showing dead animals because some lobby or faint-hearted forces the TV stations to cut out the offensive parts? Should we enjoy him telling us in words how to gut an animal because someone not only doesn’t like to eat meat but he likes to push the majority of people around not getting a good teaching with pictures?

With all respect in protecting the children but I can assure you seeing dead things is not bad for a child, it rather teaches about life. What it teach them is to have respect for the animal because we killed it not for fun but to eat it. It didn’t suffer like the animals mass-produced by our sick society, wrapped nicely in plastic. I believe that we should not cut off reality giving place to the imaginary hopes and wishes of a cleaner happy vegetarian world where the evil hunters will have to go into the “click the picture of an dead animal here “ hiding.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Andy]

I can assure you seeing dead things is not bad for a child, it rather teaches about life. What it teach them is to have respect for the animal because we killed it not for fun but to eat it.

Sex education is a good thing for children to have (IMO at least)

It didn’t suffer like the animals mass-produced by our sick society, wrapped nicely in plastic.

I've picked chickens in supermarkers and shown my mother where it has burns from sitting in it's own urine. Doesn't mean I want to see it on on here

I believe that we should not cut off reality giving place to the imaginary hopes and wishes of a cleaner happy vegetarian world

nobody asked you too

where the evil hunters will have to go into the “click the picture of an dead animal here “ hiding.

nobody called hunters evil. Infact I'm sure if I went on a rant about why you shouldn't eat meat and started calling hunters evil then I'd get moderated. Are you suggesting that I should be able to air views like these if I want to?

 

[tomtom]

Why are they then asking us for self-censorship, if we don’t bother about their views? Yes, it is self-censorship you are asking us to do.

abbe.. actually its not! censorship suggests that the pictures are removed compleatly or not posted at all.. that is not what is being asked here. All that is being asked here is that the pictures are hidden so that if one wishes to view them they need only make one further 'click' and if they do not they may still read the relevant information with out having to view the picture. i think that needs to be made very clear!

 

[Abbe Osram]

abbe.. actually its not! censorship suggests that the pictures are removed compleatly or not posted at all.. that is not what is being asked here. All that is being asked here is that the pictures are hidden so that if one wishes to view them they need only make one further 'click' and if they do not they may still read the relevant information with out having to view the picture. i think that needs to be made very clear!

Tomtom with all respect did you read the entire message?

Then you would clearly see my point of argument. We don’t have anything to hide why hiding it? There is nothing bad with dead animals, its normal. As I said in my message:

"I believe that we should not cut off reality giving place to the imaginary hopes and wishes of a cleaner happy vegetarian world where the evil hunters will have to go into the “click the picture of an dead animal here “ hiding."

Because Andy didn’t get the irony in my message I want to explain now that the word "evil" was used not because I see hunters as evil but to make a point clear. We have too not a clean and happy vegetarian world we life in therefore the entire sentence was ironic Andy! It’s simply bogus to hide reality by hiding pictures. It is stupid control too to tell people to the left and to the right what to do only because it doesn’t fit your dream vision of a happy world. I personally don’t like to cut down trees; shall we stop now showing pictures of people working in wood because it breaks my heart?

cheers
Abbe

 

[rapidboy]

I don't see a problem with dead animals being shown because i see it as a normal part of life.
That said ,I also respect other people's view's on the matter and it may be appropriate to hide the more "detailed" pic's showing game preparation etc. but the pic in question was a guy holding a squirrel in one hand and a knife in the other.
He was posing for a pic before he prepared the squirrel and it didn't actually show the animal being jointed or opened up.
So where do we draw the line ?
I understand the site is designed to be open to all ages and it's in everyones interest to make the site a accessible as possible but the content of a bushcraft site should and will include dead animals and making people hide these implies that there is something wrong with the killing of animals for food.
Perhaps Andy and the other members who access the site in communal area's should accept some responsibility and be more aware of the likely content of the site's they are accessing in relation to their environment and act accordingly.
As for children accessing the site ,if the child is using a computer supervised then the supervisor should know the kind of content a bushcraft site has and if the child is unsupervised they are going to click the link anyway and the responsibility is that of the parents.

 

[Tony]

This has deteriorated from this

Could we have a policy of hiding pics showing dead animals please. (outsode the hunting bit at least) Not everyone wants to see them. I only get on to the forum in computer rooms at uni and I really don't like people next to me looking at the pics.

to four pages of different opinions that will never be in agreement, this has turned into a political thread of peoples opinions, a mixture of what people find offensive and the voicing of rights to say and show what they want.

I explained earlier how things would be...

Pictures of dead animals, gutted animals, chopped up animals should go in the appropriate forum.

It is a hard one, The article on making Jerky has lots of shots of meat, Ray's TV stuff has him gutting and chopping meat etc

Sometimes it does seem appropriate that an example is shown outside a context that puts it into the appropriate forum, as in RB's example of using a knife.

The bottom line is that there's forums for most things and things should be put into the appropriate one, something that's not in the right one should be flagged to the mods so that they can put it straight. It happens and it's part of life on the forum, now and then you'll see something that you personally don't like, if it's in the wrong place let us know, if it's in the right place then you're in the wrong place, so move on to another forum, bcuk has many of them.

The key is, put the stuff in the right forum…..

Sorted

Any issues that people have with each other should be dealt with in private.

Above is how things are and have always been on bcuk, the forums are there to be used, there are appropriate places for everything and there are inappropriate places for things.

bcuk has remained consistent in where things should be put and what's acceptable content for the site. It's harder and harder as we get bigger to keep everyone happy, that's just how it is. The policy that we have has worked and will continue to do so, even if some don't like it as they think they're being curbed by the 'management' this is not the case, it's all about balance and consideration.

pictures of animals are allowed on the site and always will be, they're a part of everyday life, they should be in the appropriate place. Talk of making fire should be in the appropriate place, as should talk of meet ups, scouting, plants, knives, gloves, carving, cordage etc etc etc.....IF it's in the right place, there's no problem, if you think something's not, then let a mod know so that he or she can have a look.