Has anyone seen this before?

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Roving Rich

Full Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,460
4
Nr Reading
Thanks Antonio, your absolutely right. The bushcraft world is still fractionated, with every school guarding its own piece of the pie fiercly. IMO they do not want to be united or share the same space - yet. If they did they would be here communicating with their customers. This place is neutral territory where none hold sway, and contains nearly 1000 members. Thats 1000 people interested in bushcraft, practising, and learning more about it. Yet their egos and insecurities prevent them from talking openly to us, their customers. Courses and Schools are ESSENTIAL. Your a better man than me (and that takes some doing :wink: ) if you can learn fire by friction without ever seeing it done. And generally it takes a course to do that, and the hundred and one other specialist bushcraft skills that need demonstration. There will never be a substitute for hands on experience.
So come on in Schools and lets get united. The door is open, the fire is warm as will be your welcome -All of you.

Rich
 

Great Pebble

Settler
Jan 10, 2004
775
2
54
Belfast, Northern Ireland
I think it illustrates rather well the "double edged sword" that is organisation.

The beauty of BCUK is that to all intents and purposes, everyone is equal, there's no "leaders" no "committee" - Everyone pitches in with what they can contribute and walks away with what they need to know. There are "rules" and they are generally kept by conscent, and the mods do an efficient and friendly job of warning when things are straying... Thankfully they seldom have to do any more than warn.

Formalising things, while it certainly brings advantages, can lead to many. many problems as well. Things that seem so petty they're not worth worrying about become major issues when they're written down.

Bushcrafters are by nature independent people, ask for a view on A.N Other subject and from the 1000 folks here you could, potentially get a 1000 different answers, or just 2, with 500 espousing each.

Not a problem when we can all just agree to differ, but it does cause ructions within any formalised group.
Which can be particularly damaging to any pursuit if that group claims to represent an "official" view.

There also exists the possibility of commercial manipulation, "approved" knives or "accredited" training may be advantageous in presenting a responsible image to other bodies but if the sole supplier of said blades or training happens to be the incumbent chair of the organisation........


Just food for thought.
 

jakunen

Native
Great Pebble said:
I think it illustrates rather well the "double edged sword" that is organisation.<SNIP>
<SNIP>There also exists the possibility of commercial manipulation, "approved" knives or "accredited" training may be advantageous in presenting a responsible image to other bodies but if the sole supplier of said blades or training happens to be the incumbent chair of the organisation........
Therein again lies the double edge...

The guys who run the schools/shops 'know' what the industry wants from what they sell/what courses are popular, but that may not represent the wants of the community in general.
An Example: A re-enactment society with member groups spread out around the country, books up a load of 'living history' type courses, so 'the industry' promotes these over other, more useful to the 'modern' bushcrafter, and things get pushed towards that trend, so 'the industry' has a lopsided view of what 'the community' actually wants...

This brings us either to having an outside adjudicator (and as Gary points out, they do such a fantastic job at not policing the industry properly, as they probably don't understand it or just try to tye it up in red tape), or you need to have a 'committee' that encompasses both 'professionals' and 'users'. And as we have members of this forum alone spanning a number of time zones and countries, which have different laws, plus all the local bye-laws, and yet again we have a monster with several heads and a whole big can of Lumbricus terrestris!
 

chris chris

Need to contact Admin...
Feb 25, 2004
224
2
68
keswick
Site gone! association gone!

What was the reason again?

Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then.

The truth

This little trip breached several trading and advertisement regulations here in the UK and the fair trading standards office in Exeter got plenty of enquiries and complaints about it and they promptly dealt with it, good on them.

Chris
 

ScottC

Banned
May 2, 2004
1,176
13
uk
chris said:
Site gone! association gone!

What was the reason again?

Nothing to do with Exeter trading standards warning them to remove it or they would take enforcement action against them to do so then.

The truth

This little trip breached several trading and advertisement regulations here in the UK and the fair trading standards office in Exeter got plenty of enquiries and complaints about it and they promptly dealt with it, good on them.

Chris

It has been confirmed that some of the schools were talking about setting up an organization at the last wilderness gathering and that it fell apart, now it seems that survival school contacted Martyn Helliwell for advice on setting up a similar association to provide a professional code of conduct for the industry to provide schools' accreditation for the potential student's peace of mind that they are a safe and professional company.

I do think that they had the best intentions for bushcrafters but due to lack of PR and organisation it has caused bad press for survival school. Perhaps if they had went about it more formerly and democratically to elect the committee who could then do the various courses, review them and then decide who to offer membership too. Such a thing we may not be ready for, the bigger schools taking precedent over the smaller, the well known instructors over the less known. It just wouldn't be fair for someone involved in the industry to form such an organization. Like it has already been pointed out you would surely need an independent organisation :?: These are my opinions.
 

Zacary

Tenderfoot
Aug 14, 2004
61
0
After the fiasco of the Survival schools attempts to establish an association or self promote themselves or whatever, somebody from your Navy came onto the thread and mentioned a City and Guilds of London course or qualification.

Did anything come of it? I read that someone tried them and they had no knowledge of a course or modules to make up a course but that was the last I heard of it.

The reason I ask this is part of my secondment from Canada is conditional with me achieving further education in specialist fields and I am thinking a corporate lawyer who knows the survival industry would be a good specialization, hence I need to achieve an accredited qualification such as City and Guilds.

Can anybody enlighten me further?
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,166
1
1,921
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
He was at the Gathering and from what I can make out Martyn was quite up front with people there. He seems to be distancing himself from the organisers of the association which is understandable given that they say he was the one pushing it; that he was the person in charge and they were just helping him out. Which is totally contrary to what Martyn has openly stated on here. :yikes: :naughty:
He seems much more approachable and responsive than anyone else involved in all this association fiasco, maybe a little reminder would be in order and he can get back to you all on the C&G situation :biggthump
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Fantastic ........... you pop out of the room for one minute and all the world is suspicious of your intentions!

Firstly, On the statement made by Chris on Trading Standards: There is absolutely no truth in this whatsoever. Jonny Crocket contacted the trading standards department as a sort of belt and braces job to enquire if an association needed to be registered anywhere and to ask for advice about what could and should be done. (this line has been removed by moderators * - see below)
Secondly, I have obtained the City and Guilds module number for all those wishing to chase a formal qualification in survival: 5413-01 Air 427. This is the course I had certificated for military personnel, if schools wish to move this into the civilian world then you need to talk to the C & G and ask how to do this.

And finally ...........it was great to meet so many of you at the gathering last week. Please remember that we all see the same things but have different filters on our glasses, and therefore, what appears a good idea to one may seem crass to another!!


* this line named an individual from trading standards and stated that he "looked over it and gave it the thumbs up", the named individual has requested that their name be removed from this post and claims that the statement made about him is incorrect.
moderated by: stuart Date: 15/9/05
 

Stuart

Full Member
Sep 12, 2003
4,141
50
**********************
once again Survivorbility thanks for keeping us informed

Chris if you do not have tangible evidence to back up a statement please refrain form presenting it as fact untill you can provide proof
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Excellent cheers Survivabilty - TOP MAN - I'll give C&G a ring, now I have a module to chase that might help them! :biggthump
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Ladies and Gentlemen
Further to my reply at 129 .............upon investigation by Stuart our efficient moderator, it would appear that the information I repeated in my reply was not exactly as it would first appear! I printed in good faith the full reply to an email I had sent to JC seeking clarification of issues raised by Chris. It now transpires that the person I named as having given JC the green light wishes to be distanced from this issue!! You can read into this as much as you wish to!
Chris and anyone else who I may have questioned on their intent please accept my sincere apologies.
Regards
Martyn H

:banghead:
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,166
1
1,921
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
I hear ya Lurch :roll:

Martyn, you really seem to be caught up in the middle of something not of your making, I hope that the experience is not to horrendous.

I’ve had a few conversations with numerous people about this issue and it seems to me that the buck is being passed at a rapid rate. I had thought that the issues with the association etc had been laid to rest, or, maybe I just hoped they had. Anyway, the saga continues.

For the rest of the readers:

As far as I’m aware Martyn posted the name of the person at the trading standards office on the forum in the context given because that was how it was given to him by Mr Cockett, thus he thought the information contained in it was reliable, which is an understandable assumption. However, now it would seem that the information passed on to Martyn was inaccurate. It would seem (I could be wrong) that Mr Crockett made a mistake about what was said to him by the person from trading standards, and in passing this information on to Martyn, who then passed it on to those of the public interested in the subject; it has managed to mislead many people.

A request was made for the post (129) to be removed in its entirety, the reasons stated were that the name of the Trading standards officer was quoted and the information in the post was inaccurate. Rather than remove the post it was edited. The trading standards officer was notified by Mr Crockett that his name had been placed on the forum, after being thus notified he requested (indirectly) it was removed. Thus bcuk was contacted by Mr Crockett saying that he had been contacted by the trading standards officer, asking for his name to be removed from the post, and that the information he was quoted as supplying about the association was incorrect.

All this seems a bit weird to me as the information supplied to us, was from the ‘horses mouth’ so to speak, yet the same horse that supplied Martyn with answers to questions intended for public consumption, contacted trading standards and pointed out the inaccurate information supplied in its own answers to questions posed on the forum. I’m interested in how this should be interpreted? Any suggestions welcome.

I have to say that the trading standards are there to offer advice and would not have closed the association down themselves. I am of the opinion that they are not really involved in this at all and I am also of the opinion that Martyn has constantly acted in good faith, that he has been a fine example of honesty and he has gone out of his way to keep the public informed to the best of his ability. I applaud him for his efforts, especially considering the information he’s been working with.

If I have made any mistakes in this post I would appreciate the party concerned contacting me, or posting on the forum what it is I have mistaken or quoted inaccurately. I will rectify my post accordingly.

As it stands these are the happenings of the saga today. I’ve posted this because I don’t like bcuk being set up by people supplying inaccurate information, who then stir trouble based on the information that they provided. Unethical actions such as this are deplorable.
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Tant, I've contacted City and Guilds and they are looking into it as they still seem unable to find anything when they search their own data base - read into that what you will - but as soon as I know anything I will let everyone know.

Hopefully the lady I spoke to will drop me an email soon and we can at least put the C&G saga to bed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE