Has anyone seen this before?

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Fellow lovers of the great outdoors, a short history lesson if I may.............. In December 1995 at a gathering of like minded people (inc Ray Mears, Sean Mcbride, Mors Kochanski, Lars Falt and myself) in Sweden it was decided that an association should be formed to promote the art of survival. This indeed did happen with Lars Falt taking the chair for the first three years. The association was called the International Survival Instructors Association or ISIA. I took the presidency over upon Lars retiring in 1999. Sadly due to work load and little external interest I closed the association down in 2000. I retired from the Royal Navy last year as the Commander of the Royal Navy Survival School having taught climatic survival for over 25 years. I was also responsible for organising the worlds first international survival conference; Survival 95, Survival 98 and ISS04.
Whilst trawling the internet I came upon 'Survival School' run by a Mr Crockett who professed to be the uk's number '1 'survival school and that he taught the Royal Navy! This was news to me and therefore I contacted Jonny direct. Having obviously checked out my career history prior to returning my call, he mentioned that his intent and ambition was to form an association like the ISIA with the aim of introducing a 'safe and professional code of conduct' for the industry, thereby limiting the ammount of cowboys in the arena. I assisted Jonny by passing on to him the constitution I had written for the ISIA and proposed details for membership requirements. At no time have I invited anyone to join this association, linked anyone to this association, been involved with the web site of the association or offered to run the association. I have provided advice to Jonny based on my previous knowledge of this type of association and that is all!
I am very happy to assist or clarify any issue direct.
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Sorry, and finally ......... I genuinely believe that Jonny acted in what he thought was in the best interests of your community and that maybe in being overzealous he has accidentally alienated some of you. I really do hope this is not the case. I spent many long months achieving acreditation of survival training with the 'City and Guilds of London' and now can proudly issue a formal genuine and approved qualification in such.
To have a code of conduct that a community agrees to abide with is a very powerful and responsible practice and one which with a little care could be introduced successfully worldwide.
:pack:
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,973
37
50
South Wales Valleys
Many thanks for the history lesson and clearing a few things up for this community :biggthump

I genuinely believe that Jonny acted in what he thought was in the best interests of your community
I agree, good intentions were there..... I just think it was handled quite badly. Adding the 3 big schools (wooldlore, woodsmoke and woodcraft) without their knowledge and using their names (as well as their reputations) on the site was a bad call on their part. They should have contacted said schools 'first' and given them the choice of becomming members..... maybe even involved them in the disscussions when the organisation was being formed. Then we wouldn't have these problems or distrust that is currently going about :-(
Unfortunatly this has now damaged their reputation which is a shame as survival school is a good school and mud always sticks....

Ed
 

Stuart

Full Member
Sep 12, 2003
4,141
50
**********************
I am assuming that you are Martyn Helliwell (please correct me if i have made a mistake) welcome to BCUK :wave: .

may i ask do you endorse the new association run by the survival school?

have you attended any of the survival schools courses?
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Survivability I have contacted City and Guilds and they have searched their database and can, unfortunately, find no modules for survival courses or parts there of at all.

I have tried that number you gave me but as yet - no joy, which is a shame as I would have liked to have had this further accreditation.
 

Tantalus

Full Member
May 10, 2004
1,023
107
60
Galashiels
sadly my searches of google for the society or the qualification you mention produced no results either suvivability

could you give me a little more info please?

cheers
Tant
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Stuart............
1. Yes, I am Martyn H.
2. Yes, as discussed, I believe the way forward in the industry is to form a recognised association with a viable infrastructure and code of conduct. This obviously requires careful planning and introduction, and I guess maybe the world is not quite ready for that to happen. Having seen my insurance premiums rise ten fold in 4 years scares the pants of me as a management consultant that uses the outdoors occasionally, and only then for theatre! Sadly, I think it is only a matter of time before a tragic accident happens (Lyme Bay for the outdoor pursuits arena!) and litigation occurs. When this happens the world will be looking at the bushcraft/survival industry for answers.......... maybe, just maybe, this could be headed off at the pass by declaring a professional interest ie association??? (open question).
3. No, I did not know of the Survival School until last year and I haven't attended any courses run by that school.
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Tant and Gary
I have contacted HMS SULTAN (the home of the RN Survival School) and found that they do not return from summer leave until after the bank holiday next week. I will obtain the C & G module number and sylabus information then and post it here for all to view.
Hope that assists
Martyn
 

Adi007

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 3, 2003
4,080
0
New twist ... looks like the site is gone ... :?: :roll:
 
S

Survivorbility

Guest
Wayne/Addi
Just to update you on the web site of the association. Jonny Crocket called me on Monday morning post the fall out of last weeks events to discuss options for taking the association forward. As previously mentioned, I believe the world is not quite ready for this association and certainly a great deal more discussion needs to take place prior to running it out. To save further aggravation and bad press for the Survival School I suggested that Jonny pull the web site with immediate effect. This he did whilst still on the phone to me (clever stuff this web business!) ............ I think the plan is to let the dust settle for a while and then see if there is any interest in taking this thing forward. If nothing else it has stirred up a hornets nest, and at the very least has initiated thought and conversation on a potential minefield area in the industry!
Martyn
 

Wayne

Mod
Mod
Dec 7, 2003
3,750
642
51
West Sussex
www.forestknights.co.uk
Hi Martyn.

Thanks for taking the time to update us on the assiocation. Hopefully you will continue contribute to the forum.

I don't think the idea of co operation beween leading schools is necessarily bad as long as people remember that big fish were once little fish. Even Ray or Mors once sweated over the bow drill like the rest of us.

what got my back up was the lack of consultation. some people may choose to distance themselves from this forum thats fine it's their choice. I also have choices and do not like it when i feel someone else is trying to make them for me. Even if well intentioned. i am due to attend a survival school course for the first time in 2 weeks. i am quite looking forward to it. i know some other members of this forum will be attending too. :)
Hopefully the founder members will take stock of our views and approach the idea in a more democratic way next time.
 
I Have to say I read these 6 pages of posts with surprise. I must be too far away in Northern Ireland, Because all this passed me by completely.

All I can say about the issue is that yes, indeed most of the schools and instructors were interested in some sort of organisation when we spoke about this at the last wilderness gathering. For a few months, there were many E-mails flying back and forth with suggestions and how different people saw any organisation like that. It fell apart a little around christmas, because there was no unanimous concensus about what any organisation would be about. I agree with Martyn therefore that this country is not yet ready. I think we first need to learn how to share and grow together as an industry. At the moment this cannot be done because we are too protective of our courses and information. And why?
There are a lot of questions we need to ask ourselves. Why is it that when a student completes a basic course with me, he is not allowed to go to a more advanced course with some other schools? He has learned the skills, has he not?
Why is it, that people are afraid of sharing their teaching knowledge with other instructors?
Why is it that we are afraid of welcoming less experienced people into the industry? (Joel springs to mind as a bright young lad who has much more bushcraft knowledge then a lot of people I met)
Why is it that we don't want to help bad schools become good, but rather see them dissapear?
Why is it that you are only "allowed" to run a school if you have 20+ years experience? Don't we all have to start somewhere?

The organisation we tried to set up failed, because we could not agree on the answers. Some of us wanted an elite organisation, others quality control, and others again, a sharing one... Till everyone agrees what is most needed, and what can be achieved, and what is best for all concerned, then indeed, the world is not ready for an organisation yet.

I hope we are ready for it soon though, because I do agree some health and safety guidelines would be good before one person/school £%^& up and the whole industry will be in jeapordy.Perhaps an organisation would indeed also help lower insurance. (Also a victim of doubling premiums every year)

Sorry for my long ramble. It is also something that is close to my heart.

Anthonio
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Well said indeed Antonio.

The biggest enemy to an organisation of this nature is, as pointed out, those within the industry - but I dont think it is a case of the industry not being ready, people are simply guarding there livelihoods to a greater or lesser extent.

What is needed (if anything) is a 'independent organisation' which is not linked to any school by act, deed and thought. Self regulation will never work for the reasons already pointed out however an independant body would be the only way to over come the mistrust and different ideals of the various peoples involved.

But then as we have seen with OFTEL and OFWATT and all the others, once they get involved things go down the pan - after all wasnt it a good idea to get rid of a free directory enquire service which worked perfectly well and bring out something you now have to pay for and that is frankly c**p!

So what is the answer?

Maybe we should learn to leave it alone if it aint broken!
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,973
37
50
South Wales Valleys
Why is it that when a student completes a basic course with me, he is not allowed to go to a more advanced course with some other schools? He has learned the skills, has he not?
Why is it, that people are afraid of sharing their teaching knowledge with other instructors?
Why is it that we are afraid of welcoming less experienced people into the industry? (Joel springs to mind as a bright young lad who has much more bushcraft knowledge then a lot of people I met)
Why is it that we don't want to help bad schools become good, but rather see them dissapear?
Why is it that you are only "allowed" to run a school if you have 20+ years experience? Don't we all have to start somewhere?
Very well said. I think there are many instructors who do think this way. Many here on BCUK happily give their knowledge freely and have made me feel most welcome when I first joined and continue to do so. Help is always at hand and questions answered. Many schools who meetup on here now regularlary swap instructors or teach for each other their specialist topics, this is going along way to help build a better community, and community spirit is what makes bushcraft what it is

You have brought up some very thought provoking points.

Ed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE