Follow the sheeple or head for the hills?

[scoops_uk]

Well, border controls have certainly gone down the pan.

Don't flush, the water in the cistern might be useful

Scoops

 

[TheGreenMan]

I dont think they are fearful of it Paul, I think half the loonies in this thread are wishing it upon us, so they can go out into the apocalypse and practice thier post-destruction-of-society survival skills.

This is not new-orleans, it's not the apocalypse, it's England with a bit of a flood. Good grief what people would need is clean water, dry clothes, blankets and disposable nappies for the kids, not firesteels, tarps and pot-hangers. The military wont be comming to herd us into compounds, if they come it'll be to fill sand-bags, hand out water and give out food.

What really scares me, isn't the "sheeple" of which I am proud to say I'm one, it's the sociopathic, walter-mitty, nutcases with a pathological hatred of society, that actually fantasise about it's downfall. I even read one comment that a person would go into a school to steal some food before heading to the hills - how resonsible is that? ...

Yeah, I hear what you’re saying, Martyn.

I don’t think that the thread was helped any when it split into the ‘short-term temporary crisis’ hypothetical and the ‘long-term post-apocalyptic new world’ hypothetical. It made for some considerable misunderstanding and confusion. And I’m just as guilty as anyone for adding to that confusion. But I’m glad that the Moderators didn’t lock the thread. I think that some good may have come of it, energy sapping, and contentious, as it was.

The short answer to Eric’s hypothetical is that if the police knock on one’s door and request you to evacuate your home temporarily then it seems to me to be perfectly reasonable to cooperate with them (isn’t very likely that they would, at least in the early stages of the kind of recent flooding we’ve seen in the UK, as you mention, and if it gets to the point where one is being lifted off of a rooftop by helicopter, then y'er 72 hour survival kit won’t be going with you anyway).

On the other hand if one wanted to use the opportunity for a few days of fun bumming around in the local woods, there doesn’t seem much harm in that so long as the authorities have been informed one’s intentions, and thus avoid wasting their resources trying to locate you, for instance. But again, if the flood was that serious that one were taken out of an area by emergency services transport then you won’t have ‘bushcraft’ kit with you because it won’t allowed in the most likely evacuation vessel (boat).

And you’re right about people jumping into a thread like this with the Survivalist/militia agenda, I find it tiresome too, and inappropriate for the kind of scenario Eric initially proposed, but this kind of hypothetical does encourage fantasy, after all it’s what’s intended. How wise it is, is another matter. I’m pretty sure that Eric didn’t intend it to get quite so serious, and that he meant it as a harmless piece of fun.

In short, you’re correct, the thread ought to have been a non-starter if the realities of an evacuation had been properly thought through.

By the way, the pics I posted illustrate classic ‘resource aggression’. Two groups of Mark I humans asserting themselves with violence to determine whose turn it is to drink at the water hole. Admittedly an extreme example, but is in essence, the underlying motivation behind some (a small number, I would guess) of the scenes at the water bowsers and bottled water distribution centres.

The pics are a stark illustration of the underlying state of panic a number of people feel at such times, and as you have pointed out in your post, this often leads to irresponsible behaviour, and fantasy.

Oh, and I feel that the ‘sheeple’ label is objectionable, too.

Cheers,
Paul.

Personally, as a loon, I'd be avoiding those who seem to delight in causing conflict...

Me too, on both counts

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Eric_Methven]

Thanks everyone for making this an extremely interesting and, to me, very valuable thread. It was never intended to go beyond the realistic scenario I originally suggested, but the offshoots have given me a tremendous amount of information about relationships and human dynamics that I can use when I get back to writing my book. A couple of publishers have read the first 56,000 words and both have said it needs fleshing out. The characters need personalities and there aren't enough bad guys with personal agendas in it. With the above information I now feel I can give my characters personalities (Not that I had that in mind when I started the thread).

Oh, and to those who think there's no place for survivalism on a bushcraft site, perhaps you could tell me why this section of the forum is called Bushcraft and Survival skills?

Or is survival in this context restricted to getting lost in the woods?

Eric

 

[mrsfiremaker]

Bushcraft
“What is in your kit if something happens?

Survival
“What would you do if this happened?”

Psychotic
“Lets practice this!”

Sociopathic
“AND hand the children guns too!” (Yes exactly, where did the guns come in?????)

If you think this thread is crazy, then you can be very happy to know you have grown in a protected life. Please take that statement as a compliment.

Im s o r r y to have such an opinion and to have helped all you who stand on a different type of hill to think so strongly negatively of me and made myself the “crazy” one. But I feel that some here may lack the compassion and understand that I would have for them.

My goal was to never have a crazy militia type setting. It was to avoid it. I felt that I thought of a way how to but went too far trying to show everyone that, over explaining it, over analyzing it, turning it into the think I hated to begin with. I have plenty of good reason to distrust people when they do something that is well outside their typical rationalized thinking. But I have what it takes in me to try and understand that and help those people find their own strengths regardless. At least the majority in a random group would appreciate that after they got over their broken nails.

Again Im s o r r y.

Becky

 

[Toddy]

Bushcraft and Survival skills[/b]?

Or is survival in this context restricted to getting lost in the woods?

Eric

No, it's a useful skills set but it's not the major focus of the forum. Too often we have had huge rammies as hard line *Survivalists* try to get us to agree barters for the services of their wives for toilet paper or some such nonsense that most of us look with a very jaundiced eye at the very word survivalist By their very nature the, " for us or your against us", mentality does not sit well around a bushcraft campfire.
I suspect it may be time to re-think some of the forum titles.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[TheGreenMan]

Thanks everyone for making this an extremely interesting and, to me, very valuable thread. It was never intended to go beyond the realistic scenario I originally suggested, but the offshoots have given me a tremendous amount of information about relationships and human dynamics that I can use when I get back to writing my book. A couple of publishers have read the first 56,000 words and both have said it needs fleshing out. The characters need personalities and there aren't enough bad guys with personal agendas in it. With the above information I now feel I can give my characters personalities (Not that I had that in mind when I started the thread).

Oh, and to those who think there's no place for survivalism on a bushcraft site, perhaps you could tell me why this section of the forum is called Bushcraft and Survival skills?

Or is survival in this context restricted to getting lost in the woods?

Eric

I’m very much looking forward to the book, Eric. Both in terms of reading the fruits of your labours, and to see if I can spot aspects of myself in any of the characters (hope the latter, doesn’t come across as too narsarcistic – I’d quite like to be one of the bad guys, actually, it would make a refreshing change from my true character, they do say in the acting profession that ‘the Devil has all the best tunes’).

I think that Survivalists (note the capital letter ‘S’) get little serious consideration due to the ultra conservative, ultra right, position many of them have adopted. Not many of use can find room in our hearts for those that form not much more than private armies to defend themselves from non-whites/non-‘Christians’... controversial (please nobody respond to this ‘cus this is what will get this one locked). Although, I accept that there are many very decent folks, in the North Americas who have similar attitudes, and so get tarred with the same brush, unjustly. It can take some sophistication to appreciate the difference.

Survival skills are something quite different, in my personal opinion. And have probably been incorporated into the forums (I’m guessing that this is since the site upgrade, I might be quite wrong about this, as I don’t remember what the forum names were before the upgrade), to widen the appeal of the site. As far as I see it, they are more about surviving short term emergencies, or about surviving extreme environments, by people who are not native to those environments, and again, for relatively short periods of time. I think that living in extreme environments for someone native to that locale would simply be called ‘living’, we on the other hand might call it ‘bushcraft’. My personal interest leans somewhat toward ‘survival skills’ rather than ‘bushcraft’, this is just the bent of my character. I am also interested in plant biology, woodworking and so forth but these interests are in their infancy.

Anyway, all I really meant to say, Eric, was good luck with book

...

Psychotic
“Lets practice this!”

Sociopathic
“AND hand the children guns too!” (Yes exactly, where did the guns come in?????)...

This is the kind of writing that gets one misunderstood, Becky. I now, having had the benefit of your kind PMs, can set these comments into their proper context, in respect to your upbringing in your formative years. Others reading this will not have the faintest idea what meaning you are trying to convey. They come across on the screen as being slightly deranged. I know this is not the case, but this is how they look.

...Im s o r r y to have such an opinion and to have helped all you who stand on a different type of hill to think so strongly negatively of me and made myself the “crazy” one...

This is always a danger when one posts with passion, and at length. The amount of information you post is very hard to assimilate, becaues it's complex, as you yourself mention.

...But I feel that some here may lack the compassion and understand that I would have for them...

I would agree totally with this

...My goal was to never have a crazy militia type setting. It was to avoid it...

This was something that I too misunderstood and as a result I did you a great injustice.

...I felt that I thought of a way how to but went too far trying to show everyone that, over explaining it, over analyzing it, turning it into the think I hated to begin with...

Again, you are totally correct, and being very honest.

...I have plenty of good reason to distrust people...

Yes you do, I know this to be true from your PMs.

...But I have what it takes in me to try and understand that and help those people find their own strengths regardless. At least the majority in a random group would appreciate that after they got over their broken nails...

Again, you are right.

...Again Im s o r r y...

There would be no need to be so s.o.r.r.y , if would take a deep breath and slow down

Lots of love (and to Darrel and the kids),
Paul.

 

[BlackPacker]

I've followed this thread since the first day, and responded once; back with the "normal" people on the first page. I agree with many of you that this thread has gone too far from the original topic. I'm jumping back into the frey to make an observation that I think some of you have caught but others missed.

Where you live in this situation is the major determining factor. When I lived in the city, I lived in the worst neighborhood possible, where sunrise was a sufficient enough disaster to drive people to mayhem. Drug dealers, muggers, prostitutes, bad cops and worse criminals... Now, 18 months later, I live at the end of a dirt road, surrounded by pot farmers who's skills include blacksmithy, milling, hunting (We even have a vegitarian who bow hunts deer with non-lethal annoyance arrows) we have kids, elders, and even a fair amount of people my age. (30s)

In the city, it is a pressure cooker, which is why alot of us, when living in the city, are so adamant about getting out to the woods. Though more people lived within 3 miles of me, than live within 30 miles of me now, there was almost no community. I had a group of about 35 people who all worked together, but in the event of a disaster, most of us would leave.

Living out here in the mountains, there is no way I would leave. The community is there, the friends are there, and a number of those 35 people left in the city have maps and guides to get here in an emergency.

The funny thing is, one of my new neighbors told me that the best time up here is the four or five days a year when the road gets blocked and everyone takes a snow day. The hill comes alive with everyone running around on horses, 4wd drive vehicles, and even skis as everyone gathers for warmth, food and comradeship and to make sure everyone is tended to and has enough groceries for the time being.

So far, the nihilistic, lord of the flies views seem to have come from those who are describing their cities. It makes sense if you lie in a city. Having lived in a few cities in my life, it makes sense. If the social order is intact and you have murder and rape everyday, I would certainly not want to hang around if the social order got mucked.

I would also like to point out that, as an American, hearing "This isn't New Orleans" is a bit offensive, especially if you happen to be an American who knew people down there and knew what terrible actions were taken by the government in the wake if the disaster. It was Katrina that taught alot of people that they would need to tend to themselves, and one of the reasons our local Community Emergency Response Team took on more than a search and rescue role, beginning training on any skills that might be needed in a disaster. Reading this thread from the begining, when I heard, go with the authorities, I thought of the police and national guard actions in New Orleans, holding people in areas with the threat of force, flying helicopters over people begging for rescue with loud speakers saying "looters will be shot", turning away aid being shipped in by everybody from Walmart to people who traveled from Burning Man to aid in setting up shelter cities. Seriously, If I woke up and there was a guy with a FEMA shirt banging at my front door, I'd probably run out the back door.

 

[spamel]

I saw an episode of Top Gear where they bought a car each to drive across America and then sell at the other end. They were shocked at what they saw when they got to their destination, New Orleans, as it was still a mess after Katrina had been and gone, I think it was a year later! I think the shock here is that one of the largest nations on the planet still haven't sorted out one of their worst disasters after over a year. In this case, you really do need to know how to look after yourself.

I was talking to my brother about the report of people using bottled water to flush their toilets, it came up somewhere either here or on BB. I can see the madness behind it, and so could he but he then said something that really made me think: "It's not their fault, they don't know what they are supposed to do. Their government hasn't shown them the way!" Have there been any advice adverts shown on tv? I have no idea, but I think that the IQ level of british people isn't that high! It's probably just the real dummies dragging the average down, but I find using fresh bottled water to flush a toilet, which instead you can use contaminated dirty water from washing or whatever, a complete waste. If people cannot figure that out for themselves, then they are just plain dumb.

And as for the contamination of bowser water, why not have the armed forces guarding them and setting up proper water points? There is a bit of kit designed to remove nuclear, chemical and biological contaminants from water that is packed on the back of a trailer towed by a truck, and uses reverse osmosis. Stick a bit of tentage on the back of the wagon and some basic rations and a field cook kit to cater for the soldiers and set the distribution point up, ran by soldiers and protected by soldiers. If they are polluting their own water, then the only other way is to ration water by doing a house to house delivery.

Another option is to go to the pub and drink that well known southern drink, shandy!

 

[TheGreenMan]

I've followed this thread since the first day, and responded once; back with the "normal" people on the first page. I agree with many of you that this thread has gone too far from the original topic. I'm jumping back into the frey to make an observation that I think some of you have caught but others missed.

Where you live in this situation is the major determining factor. When I lived in the city, I lived in the worst neighborhood possible, where sunrise was a sufficient enough disaster to drive people to mayhem. Drug dealers, muggers, prostitutes, bad cops and worse criminals... Now, 18 months later, I live at the end of a dirt road, surrounded by pot farmers who's skills include blacksmithy, milling, hunting (We even have a vegitarian who bow hunts deer with non-lethal annoyance arrows) we have kids, elders, and even a fair amount of people my age. (30s)

In the city, it is a pressure cooker, which is why alot of us, when living in the city, are so adamant about getting out to the woods. Though more people lived within 3 miles of me, than live within 30 miles of me now, there was almost no community. I had a group of about 35 people who all worked together, but in the event of a disaster, most of us would leave.

Living out here in the mountains, there is no way I would leave. The community is there, the friends are there, and a number of those 35 people left in the city have maps and guides to get here in an emergency.

The funny thing is, one of my new neighbors told me that the best time up here is the four or five days a year when the road gets blocked and everyone takes a snow day. The hill comes alive with everyone running around on horses, 4wd drive vehicles, and even skis as everyone gathers for warmth, food and comradeship and to make sure everyone is tended to and has enough groceries for the time being.

So far, the nihilistic, lord of the flies views seem to have come from those who are describing their cities. It makes sense if you lie in a city. Having lived in a few cities in my life, it makes sense. If the social order is intact and you have murder and rape everyday, I would certainly not want to hang around if the social order got mucked.

I would also like to point out that, as an American, hearing "This isn't New Orleans" is a bit offensive, especially if you happen to be an American who knew people down there and knew what terrible actions were taken by the government in the wake if the disaster. It was Katrina that taught alot of people that they would need to tend to themselves, and one of the reasons our local Community Emergency Response Team took on more than a search and rescue role, beginning training on any skills that might be needed in a disaster. Reading this thread from the begining, when I heard, go with the authorities, I thought of the police and national guard actions in New Orleans, holding people in areas with the threat of force, flying helicopters over people begging for rescue with loud speakers saying "looters will be shot", turning away aid being shipped in by everybody from Walmart to people who traveled from Burning Man to aid in setting up shelter cities. Seriously, If I woke up and there was a guy with a FEMA shirt banging at my front door, I'd probably run out the back door.

This gets my vote as the the best post on the thread.

..."It's not their fault, they don't know what they are supposed to do...

This is very, very true.

...And as for the contamination of bowser water, why not have the armed forces guarding them and setting up proper water points? There is a bit of kit designed to remove nuclear, chemical and biological contaminants from water that is packed on the back of a trailer towed by a truck, and uses reverse osmosis. Stick a bit of tentage on the back of the wagon and some basic rations and a field cook kit to cater for the soldiers and set the distribution point up, ran by soldiers and protected by soldiers. If they are polluting their own water, then the only other way is to ration water by doing a house to house delivery...

At last, the voice of experience..Thank you, Spam.

 

[Martyn]

I would also like to point out that, as an American, hearing "This isn't New Orleans" is a bit offensive,

Why?

especially if you happen to be an American who knew people down there and knew what terrible actions were taken by the government in the wake if the disaster. It was Katrina that taught alot of people that they would need to tend to themselves, and one of the reasons our local Community Emergency Response Team took on more than a search and rescue role, beginning training on any skills that might be needed in a disaster. Reading this thread from the begining, when I heard, go with the authorities, I thought of the police and national guard actions in New Orleans, holding people in areas with the threat of force, flying helicopters over people begging for rescue with loud speakers saying "looters will be shot", turning away aid being shipped in by everybody from Walmart to people who traveled from Burning Man to aid in setting up shelter cities. Seriously, If I woke up and there was a guy with a FEMA shirt banging at my front door, I'd probably run out the back door.

Well that's exactly what I meant by "this isn't New Orleans". Meaning it was exceptionally bad for a whole bunch of reasons that are unique to that situation, most of which you've covered above. The situation we have in England, is a million miles away from what you had in New Orleans.

 

[Martyn]

Bushcraft
“What is in your kit if something happens?

Survival
“What would you do if this happened?”

Psychotic
“Lets practice this!”

Sociopathic
“AND hand the children guns too!” (Yes exactly, where did the guns come in?????)

If you think this thread is crazy, then you can be very happy to know you have grown in a protected life. Please take that statement as a compliment.

Indeed I have Becky, in England, most of us have had protected, soft and cozy lives. There is very little here to justify any degree of paranoia. In the US, things are different, In the US some of the survivalist mentality is perhaps a little justified, but importing the mindset and applying it to the UK is banannas. People here are into it, because they like it, not because there is an overwhelming threat of anarchy, disaster or destruction. There is no justification, they just enjoy the fantasy.

Im s o r r y to have such an opinion and to have helped all you who stand on a different type of hill to think so strongly negatively of me and made myself the “crazy” one. But I feel that some here may lack the compassion and understand that I would have for them.

My goal was to never have a crazy militia type setting. It was to avoid it. I felt that I thought of a way how to but went too far trying to show everyone that, over explaining it, over analyzing it, turning it into the think I hated to begin with. I have plenty of good reason to distrust people when they do something that is well outside their typical rationalized thinking. But I have what it takes in me to try and understand that and help those people find their own strengths regardless. At least the majority in a random group would appreciate that after they got over their broken nails.

Again Im s o r r y.

Becky

Becky, we live in different countries with different cultures. We may speak the same language, but really we are as foreign to one another as any other country. You may have experiences which justify some elements of survivalism, but you'd have to come and live in England to really appreciate how daft and out of context the import is for us. You have Chicago, we have Llandudno. You've got Los Angeles, we've got Tenby on Sea. Worlds apart Becky. We have had some very bad floods - some of the worst this country has ever seen, but even that doesnt come anywhere near close to the devastation you saw in New Orleans. Generally speaking, our police and army are competant, caring professions - even now in 2007 our police are not armed. It's a different world.

 

[Goose]

. No less than 86% have voted to leg it into the hills and turn thier back on everyone else..

Remember how the thread started and what the question actually asks, I like to read it as only 14% of people would put extra strain on the resources!

 

[mr dazzler]

And I just logged on to see wether any body was posting anything about the floods in the UK at the moment Theres some deep and thought provoking stuff been posted, can I add my 10 cents worth please?
I have been considering the fine line between civil "peace" and civil "unrest", especially in light of the events in Tewksbury, Sheffield, Hull, Gloucester etc, and it sort of motivated me to get my act together and make up a grab pack or emergency pack for me and my family that could be useful in unusual circumstances. I am not a bush craft sort of person, family demands and commitments preclude any serious involvement.

The recent floods are very sad for all affected by them, having your business or home ruined overnight is dreadful. there hasnt been (at least according to media sources) any dangerous or widespread panic (real dynamic panic where people shoot someone for a bottle of water or a pack of ciggies, or stampede herd mentality panic where brave strong men will trample women and kids for bread or rice etc). Thankfully we havent witnessed that in recent days. BUT if the whole country was in such a state, under filthy polluted water, no electric, no fresh water, no media, no centralised food distribution, no oil or petrol, what would it be like then? Or if terrorist's had hit several nuclear power station's, or set off dirty bombs in several location's? Perhaps that would induce dynamic panic? Isnt induced panic just as effective to paralyse a country as actual physical harm? Whose going to be in charge anyway? Theres the civil contingencies routine, stop and search, impound, commandeer, authoritarian central control of all aspects of daily life etc. Either way wether you go it alone, or stick with the sheeple; ("sheeple?" what kind of perjorative insulting name is that?) you will have to find a way to deal with the dynamic panic attack's. I mean someone sees you with a pack, right lets see what you got, right I'll take your axe, knives, billhook, rations, first aid etc, dont like it mate? smack in the face, thats better isnt it, then they give out your stuff to the police, official or otherwise, or swap it or sell it. Next bloke in the queue wont be quite so difficult to rip off, might even join them if he cant beat them. It happens all the time "in other non democratic countries"; what makes our country so good that it couldnt happenn here under worst case scenrio? Same at the reception centre in the "leisure" centre mr jobsworth community warden searches your bag and says our risk assesment shows its bad for folks to have axes knives or such things in a place like this, hand them over or we will have you arrested. They wont want anyone to be independent or able to think and act for themself. I believe that is a realistic view of what would happen in a general panic situation. People do crazy things that they later are horrified by and regret deeply, in times of great fear, like for instance in football stampede's, where its trample or be trampled, no room for a reasoned debate evry man for himself, a good talking to wont do the trick, or even reading the riot act.
So what do you do? I honestly dont know as I have never personally experienced life under real pressure/panic/life during wartime, although my wife has (iraq iran war time). I confess I dont subscribe to the milk of kindness/bbc/humanist view of the human condition. That is I believe part of the reason why as a nation we have become so mollycoddled, soft, lazy, in denial, without repect for anything except self-because we think we are so important and deserve to have someone else get us out of the mess we made ourselves (eg the idiots who didnt insure their house and still expect evryone else to pay for them when it got flooded, or they expect everyone to drop tools to rescue their cat or dog?) And yet thinking this way doesnt make me a sociopath or deviant. In fact seeing as I have 3 kids, all young one of them autistic and unable to speak, heading for the hills is not really feasible. I would most likely have to stay put, but under "official" oversight or direction, find something useful to do to help others who were having a hard time eg handicapped or elderly ones, definately not lazy people who could but wouldnt help themselfs. I aim to have useful stuff in my pack to alleviate cold/hunger/minor injury's etc. It was so sad that 2 men who did try to help themselfs died pumping water, of course next morning the fire brigade is saying we can pump out buildings, but we need to do a risk assesment first though
Any way, if everyone heads to the hills who will be in charge there? who will say your taking too much, your not pulling your weight, and how will that be enforced? Dont get ne wrong us folk of Yorkshire are blunt but also sincere, I am just asking because I dont know! cheers Jonathan

 

[Greg]

I have read through the whole of this thread today and it has been pretty fascinating, but going back to the original question I would still head off somewhere, not because I am selfish or an american style survivalist but simply because I'm sure there would be nothing that I could realistically do to help anyone else the way the professional services - Police etc wouldn't already be doing.
This was a question of where would you go not would you stay and help!
I have no family where I live except my wife and son who I would take with me and I know all my friends are very self confident and reliable.
No matter what other people think, there is nothing wrong with looking after yourself and your partner as the scenario depicts. And as long as someone knows of your intentions then why do you need to go to the school if you have the provisions and ability to look after yourself.
I have spent a long period of time in a gym with over 200 trained soldiers (of different nationalities) and even that was pretty unbearable after a few days purely because you have no privacy, you can't go to the toilet without a stranger being there, you don't want to leave your possessions because you think they might not be there when you return, at night time you can't get to sleep because there are always groups that don't want to sleep at the same time as you, which means you get tired and grumpy and the more tired you are the more you get aggressive even the most passive person can break under these circumstances - I've seen it first hand and thats with trained soldiers (which after all are just human!) So imagine what it would be like with complete strangers!

This is why I would get away somewhere else with my partner until it was possible to sort other arrangements.

But as always this is my opinion, and I don't wish to get into a conflict with anyone, after all I have seen my fareshare of conflicts in my time.

Greg.

 

[Greg]

One more thing I have just returned from a camping trip with my family just outside of Cardigan. When we arrived on Thursday there was a couple there who lived in Tewksbury in one of the flooded areas and they had just decided to get away from it all and they were very happy that they did.

 

[TheGreenMan]

...People here [UK] are into it, because they like it, not because there is an overwhelming threat of anarchy, disaster or destruction. There is no justification, they just enjoy the fantasy...

I agree, I feel this is what some of the members who live outside the UK don’t understand (and I’m really referring to some of the US membership here - By the way, some of the most interesting posts I’ve read on this site are from Americans, Canadians, Scandinavians, Europeans and the Antipodeans and those in the Far East.). As you say, the culture and society in the US is very different, and more diverse in terms of climate, than that in the UK ( but that’s not to say we don’t have a lot in common, in many respects). I admire much about the American people and their cultural traditions.

I think that fantasy plays a very important role for some of us, particularly when buying kit. For instance, I get a great deal of pleasure from researching, choosing and buying kit. And a certain amount of fantasy (‘forethought’ might be a more appropriate term for my particular mindset) plays a big part in that for some.

I feel that, what might be called the ‘hardcore bushcrafter’, may think that the interests that are pursued for recreation are in someway second rate. But whenever I encounter this viewpoint, I can’t help asking myself the question, just where in the UK is the ‘bush’?

Whilst I appreciate the skills and knowledge of the person who knows how to make fire by friction, and who can fashion a hunting bow, and make cordage and so forth, there is no actual necessity to have those skills in the UK, they are more suited to the skill sets needed by people who live in very remote regions of the world where access to goods made with modern industrial mass production methods is difficult, and/or expensive. And the people who live in those regions are the ones who I consider are practicing ‘hardcore [traditional] bushcraft’.

And none of the skills I mention in the previous paragraph are going to be needed in Eric’s short-term hypothetical. So the idea that one should go ‘bushcrafting’ in the local woods during, in, what has been, no more than a series of regional crises (the current situation in the UK is not a national crisis by any stretch of the imagination) ,is, I feel a little out of place. Most of my kit consists of items of, largely, military origin, not because I want to equip myself for the end of the ‘civilised’ order, but because it’s the most appropriate for my needs and personal circumstances.

All the other stuff like my embryonic interest in amateur botany, and woodcraft etc, are fun and a satisfying recreation…that’s RE-CREATION… an antidote to the stresses of urban living.

I’m not in any way trying to belittle the membership who involve themselves in the more classic and antique craft skills, on the contrary, I admire them for it, and for what they have taught me and introduced me to, and they have enriched my life, and it’s one of the more productive (in the development of the individual, sense), activities that is taking place in this country. These interests are all for the good.

I think you’re right, Martyn, the emphasis in the UK in respect to the outdoors life, is on fun and pleasure and wellbeing, and long may it remain so.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[scoops_uk]

I don't want to launch off into politics but I feel the need to 'defend' my position, because frankly, I don't think I'm the one who's mad.

This map is a distortion of the world based on a countries ecological footprint. I hope it's pretty obvious that the developed nations are significantly larger than they should be. This is because they are consuming far more of the earth's resources than they can provide for themselves. The redder the colour, the worse the situation.

If I go on spending more money than I earn eventually I go bankrupt. If society continues consuming more resources than the earth can provide at some point something has to give. This is the basic principle of sustainability.

You might believe technology is the solution to save the day (such as big "space mirrors" reflecting away all that nasty sunlight and cool the planet a bit), I'm not convinced. I think we need to change the way we live, to reduce the rate we consume resources and to live a simpler life. I'm doing my best to do that I'm one of those cycle to work, recycle everything, organic box scheme nutters.

Unfortunately, I'm in a minority and that leads me to fear that those who think a 4.2 litre turbocharged 4x4 is perfect for a 1 mile school run are going to bankrupt us ecologically speaking. I'm not wishing "doomsday" on anyone, far from that I'm doing all I can. I'm scared that I'm in a minority and a lot of very smart people keep trying to tell us time is *really* running out. After all, a lot of UK crops are ruined this year (I know this because I rely on locally sourced produce) Crops are failing elsewhere too, we might not be able to rely on buying food in from around the globe.

I don't have any weapons, I don't have a bunker, I'm a pacifist. Violence should absolutely be the last resort to defend myself or those who can't defend themselves. So my interest in this thread is doing everything I can to stop "doomsday" and should social order ever breakdown, considering what I might do to avoid meeting a violent end.

What is my point? - we should do everything we can to help both prevent a crisis and to help those affected a crisis, if that fails then we should do everything we can to avoid violence and to form a peaceful future.

I'm a nutter?

Scoops

 

[Greg]

You are right about being in a minority Scoops, unfortunately in the world we live in there are to many big companies with too much money to loose by cutting down on emmisions etc and to get away with it they build ther factories and industrial sites in what we know as third world countries where ther are no governing laws so the crisis will inevitably play out to the end, when everything goes t*ts up.
No matter how much the politicians go on about this, it will never go away and there are to many rich people who don't give a damn about the environment or aren't savvy enough to realise what is happening because they have their heads wear the sun don't shine.
And its these people who own the big industrial corporations etc.

So although my hat goes off to you and everyone else who tries to live a simple less consumarist lifestyle unfortunately it just isn't enough to change what will eventually happen in the future. I know this does sound a bit doomsday and all that but like you said people with big scientific brains have been trying to warn us for sometime that the planet won't be able to sustain our ever increasing population for much longer and when that time comes then, well, God only knows!

So by preparing oneself, even if that means passing on this preparation to our siblings for the future then we can at least believe we and our chldren may be able to survive the coming DOOMSDAY!!!

OK I'm probably a nutter aswell, I put it down to all the coffee I have had this morning!!

 

[Mirius]

You are right about being in a minority Scoops, unfortunately in the world we live in there are to many big companies with too much money to loose by cutting down on emmisions etc and to get away with it they build ther factories and industrial sites in what we know as third world countries where ther are no governing laws so the crisis will inevitably play out to the end, when everything goes t*ts up.

Well I know that I am a nutter, but I do have to take exception to this. Companies on the whole are driven by market forces, and this idea of the evil corporation exploiting the third world is on the whole a myth. Whilst undoubtedly there are some who fall into that category, most are not. Yes the exploit those countries, because if they don't and their competitors do then they will go under. Ten years ago we used to be able to rely on a 'blue chip' company in the UK for credit purposes, now we have to credit check them all.

And the reason for the exploitation? It isn't to make excessive profits, though I'm not saying that Tesco's for example doesn't make large profits. Tesco forces down the prices it buys from farmers in the UK and buys clothes from sweatshops because that is what we demand. Just look at how the supermarkets advertise themselves. Ask Sainsburys if it isn't a cut-throat business. Scoops is on the right track, and I don't know what the answer is - but certainly blaming it on the 'evil' corporations is a way of turning the blame away from ourselves.

 

[TheGreenMan]

I don't want to launch off into politics but I feel the need to 'defend' my position, because frankly, I don't think I'm the one who's mad...

Well, you seem like a pretty well balanced sort to me, Scoops, but I’m guessing that the cartoons that Martyn posted (for instance) relate to the kinds of anxiety laden responses and solutions that are touted by the Militia type Survivalist which result in a ‘siege’ mentality. And I think that he is right when he stated that, in his opinion, that many of them would indeed like to see doomsday come, as this would give them their opportunity to cleanse the world of those who are different from them.

However, I think that it’s important that we separate that from different type of anxiety that many of us have expressed in relation to our fear of the loss of the social order that we take for granted. And I think that it’s perfectly legitimate to express those concerns. I mean, it’s not as if we have no real world precedents to draw examples from. There are ample examples.

Unnecessary or excessive speculation (perhaps fantasy, in some senses) by more rational types can also lead to a state of unhelpful anxiety which can then very easily tip-over into actions provoked by a resulting state of panic, and I think that perhaps this is what he may have been hinting at too. We may have seen or heard of mild examples of this type of behaviour in the current UK flood crises.

Global climate change as we all know, or at least are beginning to realise, is an issue from which none of us are going to escape, perhaps the worst of which will not be experienced by any of us in our lifetime, but more probably by our children and generations to follow.

You’re right I think, when you say that technology will not have all the answers, but I have little doubt that it will have some. The biggest problem is preparing the global population (and particularly those of us in the ‘developed economies&#8217 for the realisation that life can’t go on as it is now, in respect to unrestrained consumerism. This is a difficult transition to live through, because we will need to make personal sacrifices (as you are doing) in terms of our own individual lifestyle. Not everybody is going to be happy with that, and the tendency will be for each of us to point the finger of blame at the other, in an attempt to avoid taking responsibility for our actions, and to face the difficult challenges ahead.

Ultimately, a more Amish type lifestyle, may be the way ahead, as I mentioned previously in the thread. I know this might sound regressive and a little peculiar, but who knows what the future holds for the generations that come after us?

You are right about being in a minority Scoops, unfortunately in the world we live in there are to many big companies with too much money to loose by cutting down on emmisions etc and to get away with it they build ther factories and industrial sites in what we know as third world countries...

...So by preparing oneself, even if that means passing on this preparation to our siblings for the future then we can at least believe we and our chldren may be able to survive the coming DOOMSDAY!!!...

I think that in many ways, that this is the crux of it, Greg. The largely stock market driven economies of the ‘developed economies’, and the competitive nature and needs of those companies listed on the worlds stock markets, and their ever present need to make more and more profit to maintain their stock market prices, has given birth to the Global Economy. And the Global Economy and its shifting of the means of production to parts of the world where labour costs are low, and thus increase the profitability of the consumer products which are then transported back around the world to be sold to the relatively wealthy Western consumer, is a major part of the problem.

At least if the ‘doomsday’ comes, or comes earlier than many of us expect, and if it can’t be avoided, then at least those of us here who have played a part in the revival of the crafts of previous generations, will have done something (however modest) to prepare our children and grandchildren to cope with, to some extent, if as you say, we convey those interests, and the skills and knowledge to the next generation of ‘bushcrafters’.

...and buys clothes from sweatshops because that is what we demand...

It is undoubtedly true, Mirius, that our expectation of low cost goods are a major contributing factor in the economy/environment dynamic.

Best regards,
Paul.