doomsdayers/preppers

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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
Going back to something Rik said, we have two types of TEOTWAWKI.

High likelihood & low impact (severe winter/flooding preventing delivery of food, water supplies fail, fuel supplies cut back)

Low likelihood & severe impact (total breakdown of civilization due to catastrophic global event - e.g. virus destroys all grass, as in 'Death of Grass' novel).

I used to like some aspects of living on the boat, as we were constantly set up for dealing with scenario 1. All we needed was for a couple of days of very heavy rain and suddenly we couldn't move about as normal, relied on canoes for getting on/off the boat. Usually had couple of month's supply of fuel onboard, ditto drinking water (if we stopped having showers).

Now we are in a house, if the water-mains froze or broke, we wouldn't have drinking water, heating. In winter life would very quickly turn grim indeed. We do have stocks of food, but then again, without gas or water . . . .
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
12,781
1,518
51
Wiltshire
Certainly there were people who lived mainly on shellfish.

The prehistoric japanese and their `huge` middens spring to mind.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I first came across the equivalence of X thousand shellfish to one deer years ago when reading about the Danish Stone Age Midden people but the equivalence is a fallacy. Shellfish are far more like fruit that is very nearly always in season than hunted meat. Thus a pound of shellfish meat at, say. a quarter of an ounce for each cockle or whatever is 48 to the pound thus to gather a pound of "meat" for each of a family of four one would need to collect 200 cockles, something we used to do easily when holidaying on the east coast of England. As the shellfish is always there except for the spawning season there is no real need to preserve it.

Our family of four with their deer carcase of, say. one hundred pounds, could eat it in 25 days at the same ration as for shellfish, if it would keep which it probably wouldn't.

Crude and questionable figures but the concept is correct.

The main trouble with your figures is that it only takes into account a single serving of meat per person (actually at 4 ounces, just over a 3 ounce serving*) A 1000 calorie per day diet calls for 5 servings of meat/day (spread over 3 meals) rather than 1; plus all the other food groups (spread over 3 meals and 2 snacks) And a 1000 calorie day diet is an extreme weight reduction diet for women. The recommended diet for active men is 2200-3500 calories per day.

These fogure raise your harvest requirement to as much as 5500-7000 cockles per day (just to supply the meat) for a family of 4.

* I know McDonalds and many cookbooks think of 1/4 pound (4 ounces) as a serving of meat but dieticians and nutrition guidelines are based on 3 ounce servings (the equivalent of 1 medium egg)
 
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gliderrider

Forager
Oct 26, 2011
185
0
Derbyshire, UK
Yes, but it doesnt all have to be meat from one sauce does it?

For example
A boiled egg or 2 and toast for breakfast
Poultry (or Foul) and pulses for Mid Day Meal(or a dripping sandwich hmm)
Red Meat and Veg (Spuds, Seasonal veg) for main meal
Fruit throughout the day

Would soon get you your 3K calouries with the right food groups ticked, If you plan you can store up the things that arnt readily available naturally in the UK such as rice, an extra bag in the trolley at tesco each week while the going is good would see you right for minor disastors lasting less than a month, and a few tins of spam never go's amiss.

Maybe its just a coincidence that until reletivly recently that was pretty much the familys meals.
 
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Ronnie

Settler
Oct 7, 2010
588
0
Highland
Interesting thread, with lots of really useful contributions.

My comment is that location is the biggest prep. The second is skills. I'm not sure whether physiological or psychological preparedness comes next. Last comes emergency supplies, and are only ever going to be a defence against short term crisis (e.g. Fukushima, Katrina, the early stages of systemic collapse). People who think they can shop their way to salvation are deluded.
 

Ronnie

Settler
Oct 7, 2010
588
0
Highland
Do you have a guidelines of 'rules' for that?

It's a complex equation, and is personal to the individual. Low population density is always advisable - especially for the kind of folk who frequent this forum.

Apologies if that's not the answer you were looking for.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
77
Cornwall
The main trouble with your figures is that it only takes into account a single serving of meat per person (actually at 4 ounces, just over a 3 ounce serving*) A 1000 calorie per day diet calls for 5 servings of meat/day (spread over 3 meals) rather than 1; plus all the other food groups (spread over 3 meals and 2 snacks) And a 1000 calorie day diet is an extreme weight reduction diet for women. The recommended diet for active men is 2200-3500 calories per day.

These fogure raise your harvest requirement to as much as 5500-7000 cockles per day (just to supply the meat) for a family of 4.

* I know McDonalds and many cookbooks think of 1/4 pound (4 ounces) as a serving of meat but dieticians and nutrition guidelines are based on 3 ounce servings (the equivalent of 1 medium egg)

If you read the text you would see that I said a pound each for each member of a family of four, quarter of an ounce per cockle=48 cockles to the pound=about 200 cockles per day per family=(if you must) 3x5+ ounce servings per day. And seaweeds and foraged plants and fish if possible and seals etc.

Unfortunately we are hung up on the idea of variety in a diet as much as we are on the necessity to keep swallowing water in immense quantities, both are fallacious. The FAO pointed out years ago that a diet consisting mainly of wheat would, if adequate in bulk, contain more than enough protein, and probablyditto sago, ditto rice etc. Of course there are dangers of deficiency diseases in the long term but a very moderate amount of variety will take care of that. One should also say that daily calorie requirements are optimum and about as accurate as recommended daily limits of alcohol drunk.

Incidentally 5500-7000 cockles is (divide by four as cockle=quarter of an ounce divide by 16 for pounds) 86-109 pounds of cockle meat a day, do check again. If I have only allocated 1000 calories then double it for 2000 average calories and that id still only 400 cockles a day but there would be other foodstuffs as indicated.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
The whole shell food thing really is a bit of a loser long term imho, fresh fish and good crab yes, cockles et al would be more snack food as enjoyed in the old days. How much energy will you use gathering your 50 cockles?

If I had the money, I'd pay people to go on hunter gatherer trip for a month, under supervision and it would be interesting to see how much weight they lost in four weeks.
 

Ronnie

Settler
Oct 7, 2010
588
0
Highland
I'm not convinced by the argument that people can't survive off shore line foraging.

I am confident that I could support my family 365 days per year with some pretty basic equipment from a West Highland foreshore and immediate waters. Some degree of carbohydrate supplementation would be useful, but there are onshore sources of this, and seafood is a valuable barter commodity.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Interesting how many in your family? What wild food providing a health diet is available up there all year round? Who would you barter with in an 'end of days' sort of scenario, without transport you'd all be eating from the same pool so to speak.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I'm not convinced by the argument that people can't survive off shore line foraging....

I don't think the general argument is that the shoreline couldn't support a family or two; rather that it couldn't support the mass of people that would descend on it
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
If you read the text you would see that I said a pound each for each member of a family of four, quarter of an ounce per cockle=48 cockles to the pound=about 200 cockles per day per family=(if you must) 3x5+ ounce servings per day...

Yes you're right, I misread your numbers. Still that only accounts for 5 servings (of meat) per family member per day; that's still a weight reduction diet for an average sized sedate woman. A maintenance diet fro an average sized active man needs about 3 times that much.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
...Unfortunately we are hung up on the idea of variety in a diet as much as we are on the necessity to keep swallowing water in immense quantities, both are fallacious. The FAO pointed out years ago that a diet consisting mainly of wheat would, if adequate in bulk, contain more than enough protein, and probablyditto sago, ditto rice etc...

True enough there are proteins in vegetable foods also----but most of them are in incomplete form. As far as I know there is little protein in rce but when eaten in combination with beans (a high protein plant) together they become a complete protein. However I'm not aware of many beans growing along the shoreline (or rice for that matter) A further problem with vegetable protein is that you simply need to consume a vast quantity to get a sufficient amount; that and plants tend to be seasonal.

BTW What is the FAO?
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
77
Cornwall
So they want 3pounds a day each, not a real problem especially when supplemented as I keep saying. I don't eat 3lbs of food a day now and I'm fat.

FAO is the Food and Agricultural Organisation http://www.fao.org/about/en/

They pointed out the fact that hunter-gatherers probably work less than anybody else but I wonder if they added in travelling times and women's collecting time spent correctly. Nevertheless much less work done than by peasant agriculture and for a more varied diet.
 

TeeDee

Full Member
Nov 6, 2008
10,451
3,654
50
Exeter
So they want 3pounds a day each, not a real problem especially when supplemented as I keep saying. I don't eat 3lbs of food a day now and I'm fat.

But in an End-of-Days / TEOTWAWKI Your BMR would be increased due to increased physical movement ( calorie burn ) , No Gas Central Heating on all the time ( Calorie Burn ) and a general increase in all activitys will increase the BMR.

No more sedentry lifestyles available, I'm afraid.
 

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