Don't shoot, I'm only the piano player

[bigjackbrass]

Hang on a tick, I'm just buckling the Kevlar vest on...

Thank you all for responding, and for doing so with the grace and thought so often typical of this site. Many good points have been raised, although since most of the activity tends to happen when I'm away from the computer there's a bit too much for me to address all at once.

One thing I would like to clarify, though, is my stance on gear. I have a lot of it, and I really have nothing against it. Although I do my best to travel light I do not compromise on quality or leave behind items I consider essential, or even highly desirable, and I do not claim to have found the perfect kit list or wander into the wilds with nothing but a figleaf and a paring knife. What bothers me about kit, and about some of the discussion on the subject, is that it can get in the way if we are not careful. Take a tarp, for example. A few strings and a square of waterproof material and there you go, a wonderful versatile shelter. You can buy a fancy expensive one (mine's a GoLite), find an army surplus bargain, sew your own or just use a big sheet of polythene, all approaches provide you with something to keep the rain off. Unlike the average modern tent, however, tarps require some skill and thought to erect successfully. Regardless of type there is a need to practice, to experiment and to learn, or else you'll find yourself with either a kite or a shroud the moment the weather worsens. Learning how to use a tarp is very much a bushcraft skill, and someone looking to buy a tarp will certainly be interested in finding out about different models, but isn't it more important to focus on the skills required?

Of course, very often this happens, and I have learned a truckload since finding this site. I suppose I just wonder if we are not sometimes so eager to discuss the things we are carrying that we are in danger of forgetting why we lug them out into the woods in the first place.

 

[Adi007]

I like your idea there ... anyone who has bought a tarp needs to practice putting it up. Same with knife sharpening (I think Hoodoo's covered that well), firelighting, food prep, packing a rucksack, knots, plant and tree identification, etc, etc ... problem is, these things take time (writing, photos and so on). Everything like this that we do for the site adds a lot of value to the site.

This summer we plan of taking the camera and video camera out and cover some of the basics of basha construction (among many other things). These will probably be more like "articles" than posts but I'm sure they will generate discussion.

 

[Hoodoo]

Well heck, if ya wanted to talk about tarps, why didn't ya say so?

In all seriousness, some things are hard to explain on a forum (like how to pitch a tarp because they are so versatile). Just getting out and doing it is the best thing. And that's one of the problems with forums. We can share a lot of info and pics, but it's still not the same as getting out and doing it. Althought it sure helps if you know how to make a taut-line hitch. :-D So it's a lot easier for me to show you a new wizbang tarp or even one of my favorites, the blue poly tarp, but I can't say exactly how to pitch it. If someone tries it and gets wet, they might want to try something different next time. :-D It's like spoon carving. I can show a pic of a knife and a spoon and the steps in between but the spoon won't get carved unless someone does it. And they will learn things I can't explain. There are limits to this medium, eh?

 

[bigjackbrass]

Very true Hoodoo, and indeed I am very aware of such limits. Certainly I knew that I might come over as being against certain sorts of discussion when I posted this topic, when in fact I am trying merely to raise awareness of an apparent imbalance (one possibly detrimental to the whole site), and I do understand that some - perhaps most - skills are very difficult to convey through this sort of medium. Where the Internet excels, however, is in putting diverse peoples in contact with one another; from those who know can we learn the skills we want and need. There are all sorts of resources and teachers out there and I have found BushcraftUK invaluable when it comes to finding them.

It strikes me that new members, specifically those who are new to the whole field (no pun intended, for a change) of bushcraft, might take the apparent obsession with gear as indicative of what is really required in order to enjoy the hobby. Do they have the right knife? the proper tarp? the Gore-Tex underwear? It's easy to discourage newcomers in that way, albeit entirely unintentionally.

Now if you'll excuse me, I seem to be suffering from tarp-envy...

 

[Hoodoo]

Jack, I truly understand your concerns and agree with them. The problem is that internet forums are mercurial in nature and the dynamics of them change as members get to know each other. In other words, the topics are always in a state of flux. And this is a good thing imo, because after awhile, you can get really really bored talking about the same things over and over again. The best boards and most successful boards I have ever seen provide a lot of leeway. And the reason they are successul is that people don't come to boards just to learn about survival or bushcraft. It becomes a social phenomenon, a global campfire of wide ranging topics. This is what keeps people interested and keep 'em coming back. I will add that it helps tremendously to have new folks come in who want to learn because it gives the old hands a chance to share their knowledge. But if the questions aren't asked, it's often just the nature of the beast that the answers won't be offered.

Now how to deal with the issues you raise is a tough one. It's up to you and the rest of the members to start the discussions you want to see. I also think the articles section is a good place to maintain basic information. It's just up to the members to contribute to the articles so that high-quality information is right there and handy. But of course, a forum is all about discussion and not just reading articles. Otherwise, you could just have articles and no forum. :-(

What you offer is a reality check and I can appreciate that. But what I'm saying is that forums also whet the appetite. I'm really not concerned that a newbie will start hanging out here and buy a bunch of gear he or she doesn't know how to use and lug it all into the woods. The fact that the person is actually buying gear and thinking about using it is a good start. And if they head off into the woods and get soaking wet and cold and tired from a heavy load, it will be a good learning experience of the kind that can't be provided by a forum.

Ok, I'm going to shut up here and just quote Kephart: :-D

"Let me not be misunderstood as counseling anybody to "rough it" by sleeping on the bare ground and eating nothing but hardtack and bacon. Only a tenderfoot will parade a scorn of comfort and a taste for useless hardships. As "Nessmuk" says: 'We do not go to the woods to rought it; we got to smooth it -- we get it rough enough in town. But let us live the simple, natural life in the woods, and leave all the frills behind.'

An old campaigner is known by the simplicity and fitness of his equipment. he carries few "fixings," but every article has been well tested and it is the best that his purse can afford. He has learned by hard experience how steep the mountain trails and how tangled the undergrowth and downwood in the primitive forest. He has learned, too, how to fashion on the spot many substitutes for "boughten" things that we consider necessary at home.

The art of going "light but right" is hard to learn. I never knew a camper who did not burden himself, at first, with a lot of kickshaws that he did not need in the woods; nor one who, if he learned anything, did not soon begin to weed them out; nor even a veteran who ever quite attained his own ideal of lighness and serviceability."

 

[bigjackbrass]

Quite so. There is only one way to increase a certain type of content and discussion on any forum and that is to do it oneself instead of hoping that others will do it for you. At heart, that may be the goal of my original posting, to encourage all of us to avoid complacency and to post new topics as well as replying to existing threads. I am not a disgruntled user, after all, and I plan to stay for as long as I can maintain Internet access.

Quoting Kephart at me, eh? A shrewd and cunning blow, sir. Pray allow me to respond:

"A man's outfit is a matter which seems to touch his private honor. I have heard veterans sitting around a camp-fire proclaim the superiority of their kit with a jealousy, loyalty, and enthusiasm they would not exhibit for the flesh of their flesh and the bone of their bone. On a campaign you may attack a man's courage, the flag he serves, the newspaper for which he works, his intelligence, or his camp manners, and he will ignore you, but if you criticize his patent water-bottle he will fall upon you with both fists."

Richard Harding Davis.

Still true today, 87 years later.

 

[Hoodoo]

:biggthump

One of my favorite passages. :-D

 

[Stuart]

It strikes me that new members, specifically those who are new to the whole field (no pun intended, for a change) of bushcraft, might take the apparent obsession with gear as indicative of what is really required in order to enjoy the hobby. Do they have the right knife? the proper tarp? the Gore-Tex underwear? It's easy to discourage newcomers in that way, albeit entirely unintentionally.

This is a good point and one which, now raised can hopfully be resolved
and improve the site

"A man's outfit is a matter which seems to touch his private honor. I have heard veterans sitting around a camp-fire proclaim the superiority of their kist with a jealousy, loyalty, and enthusiasm they would not exhibit for the flesh of their flesh and the bone of their bone. On a campaign you may attack a man's courage, the flag he serves, the newspaper for which he works, his intelligence, or his camp manners, and he will ignore you, but if you criticize his patent water-bottle he will fall upon you with both fists."

Touché !!
Fantastic quote :clap:

 

[bigjackbrass]

I must credit David Wescott for putting me onto the Richard Harding Davis quote. Wescott's "Camping in the Old Style" is a delightful book and has provided lots of material to explore further. I probably have less to thank him for when it comes to the amount I have spent acquiring original copies of the texts he quotes... Luckily for those interested you can find many of the works of Richard Harding Davis on the splendid Project Gutenburg website: http://promo.net/pg/
This is a free resource allowing access to numerous out-of-copyright books, albeit in electronic rather than paper form.

 

[Justin Time]

It strikes me that new members, specifically those who are new to the whole field (no pun intended, for a change) of bushcraft, might take the apparent obsession with gear as indicative of what is really required in order to enjoy the hobby. Do they have the right knife? the proper tarp? the Gore-Tex underwear? It's easy to discourage newcomers in that way, albeit entirely unintentionally.

This is a good point and one which, now raised can hopfully be resolved
and improve the site

Can I suggest an alternative take on this, probably two points actually... Firstly I suspect a lot of us have been through the "best kit" or " What does Ray Mears use" phase, in the same way as we used heavily laden rucksacks on our first backpacking trips. Part of the process of learning may be working through this as you gain confidence in skills and knowledge. I'm not sure we can easily short-cut this.

Secondly, we don't know why people join the site, obviously some are complete newcomers looking for tips and tricks but I suspect a lot of us are looking for the company of like minded people. Talking about skinning a rabbit with discoidal blades you made yourself can get funny looks from work colleagues, same if you talk about your favourite GB axe or the benefits of ventile.