damascus - want one but confused about it

[gorilla]

now i have well and truly got the knife bug, i am already thinking about my next buy. i love the look of damascus, but as a steel idiot, i am unsure as to whether the higher price is purely for the aesthetic qualities of the steel. the wikipedia entry for damascus is mainly concerned with the historical aspects of manufacture, and doesn't really give any kind of present-day information about how good/bad it is. obviously, i don't want to shell out a sizeable chunk of cash on a blade without knowing what i'm getting, so if you knowledgeable types out there could give me an idiots guide to the do's and don'ts that would be great. links to good blades, advice, recommendations - all good
thanks in advance

 

[Singeblister]

The main thing to look for is what type of steel is used in the billet , price will be affected by the pattern as well as the more complex the pattern the more work goes into it . There is a guy in the US on eBay who sells damas blades and its good stuff drop me a pm and I will find out the name for you cant remember offhand and I will forget if you don't pm me

 

[Mirius]

It's also something of a minefield in terms of terminology. What you see isn't technically Damascus, which is why the wikipedia entry isn't that helpful. Actually I'm not entirely sure that anyone is really sure exactly how Damascus was made (but that is a minefield I'm not going to argue about). So it depends if you just want something that is decorative and doesn't add anything to the steel's abilities or if you want something that is better steel but may not really be that noticable because the technology/ technique is hidden inside the blade.

 

[Draven]

Personally... I don't like the term "Damascus". It has too many meanings nowadays. Most of what is referred to as "Damascus" steel is really pattern welded steel (folded layers) as far as I'm aware, whereas originally Damascus meant something different - again, as far as I'm aware. Wootz is Damascus, I think.

And again, as far as I can tell, the main appeal of Pattern Welded steel is aesthetics. Folded steel certainly has its uses, but as far as knifemaking goes, the main use is sandwiching a layer of hard steel between layers of soft steel, like the laminated Mora.

Historically speaking, Pattern Welding was used because they couldn't get a steel good enough, so they welded, folded and twisted together a hard steel with soft iron. The beauty of pattern welded steel was just a side effect really. As they gained the ability to make better steel, they stopped pattern welding, because it was unnecessary - and it still is

If you like the look of it, I see no reason not to buy it - I sure want a pattern welded blade But I wouldn't expect it to be a miracle steel, and if you want a real Damascus blade, go for one of Wootz

PS: What Mirius said too Technically speaking, nobody is 100% sure what Damascus is - not even 100% sure that the current method of Wootz production are accurate, as far as I'm aware.. Numerous people have claimed to develop the "real" technique, though.

 

[Singeblister]

I think he just wants pattern welded steel for the aesthetics , You are right if we are being strict here but the term Damascus in a modern meaning is pattern welded steel, going in to the history of Damascus is far to mind boggling at this time in the morning

 

[Aliwren]

There is a lovely twist pattern Damasteel bushcrafter currently for sale made by Stu Mitchell over on BB. I have a smaller version in iron wood and its fantastic!

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50824

 

[robin wood]

Hi Gorilla,
Yep I second all of the above.
Damascus blades sure look pretty and I can see the attraction I also admire the skill involved in forging the original billet rather than simply grinding out a profile from flat bar, kind of seems more like proper knife making to me. Having said that I would not expect any damascus blade to perform any better than the shing/dougster knife you just bought, as has been said before it is primarily aesthetics. If you want to learn more hang out on Britsh Blades or do some searches there. If I wanted a damascus (that is pattern welded) blade that cut well I would get it from Owen Bush. He is as I understand it one of few British smiths seriously forging damascus and testing it in a pretty objective scientific manner. Now if you really want to get into knife technology go down and do a course with him. I am just back from a weekend forging knives at his workshop in south London and I learnt a lot...quite reasonable too.

 

[Shewie]

now i have well and truly got the knife bug, i am already thinking about my next buy. i love the look of damascus, but as a steel idiot, i am unsure as to whether the higher price is purely for the aesthetic qualities of the steel. the wikipedia entry for damascus is mainly concerned with the historical aspects of manufacture, and doesn't really give any kind of present-day information about how good/bad it is. obviously, i don't want to shell out a sizeable chunk of cash on a blade without knowing what i'm getting, so if you knowledgeable types out there could give me an idiots guide to the do's and don'ts that would be great. links to good blades, advice, recommendations - all good
thanks in advance

Just wait `til Dougster see this Iain


Rich

 

[C_Claycomb]

...or you could just go for something made of Damasteel That is the trade name for one kind of stainless pattern welded steel. It is Swedish and is by the same folk that offer RWL34. There are other makers of the stuff, like Devin Thomas in the US.

To reveal the pattern, a fairly large amount of stock removal is done on pattern welded blades. You don't tend to forge the bevels in as much as you would with a mono-steel blade.

There are some blades that have either stainless or carbon patterned steel laminated to a mono-steel core, three layer (San mai). You get the contrast of the pattern without worrying whether it will limit cutting performance.

The problem with some damascus blades is that the edge used is quite deep and the layers can be felt with a finger nail. If you use such a knife the visible pattern won't fade so much, but it is easy to get gunk sticking to the low spots. You have to decide early whether you are going to use the blade, or try to keep it pristine. The stainless versions are more forgiving in this regard.

 

[Labrador]

Hi,
one of the major uses for damascus steel was in old English shotgun barrels where it is reputed to have been made by heating, folding & hammering used horseshoe nails into a billet. Try some shooting forums for more info or perhaps have a chat with your local gunsmith.

 

[gorilla]

Just wait `til Dougster see this Iain


Rich

i'm sure he'll understand - the Shing-Dougster is my user and will be for many years
in fact, he warned me that the bug would get me! add the shing to my 2 SM#1s that i have bought in the last couple of weeks, and that gives me 10 knives and 3 axes already
thanks for all the advice from everyone - as has been said, the 'true' origins of damascus seem to have been lost in antiquity, and it does now appear to be something of a generic term.
obviously, owning a dam blade is primarily about the looks, and while i would want it to be a functional knife(or axe), it will mainly be a collection piece
i'm looking forward to getting into handling my own blanks, so maybe a bit more time spent on BB will be a good idea!
thanks again :You_Rock_

 

[Shing]

I like Damasteel stainless damascus, its made with very good steels using a non traditional powdered steel process. It looks really nice and theres a good choice of patterns.

Just etched a Damasteel blade for another maker and its really lovely, like fine silk on top of polished steel.

But Damascus is really for looks, there was a time in the mid eighties when pattern welded damascus was being made by more people, it was hyped as being a supersteel but that seemed to have gone now and people are going back to ordinary steel for users and damascus for looks

 

[Greg]

Gorilla, if your after a damascus blade you can't go far wrong with one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Custom-Made-F...oryZ1403QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

John Fenna, Jedediah and myself have all got one (or in my case three) of these blades and found them to be very good and they have a nice pattern to boot!

I guess you could put a bid in on this one, but I don't know anything about it!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Damascus-fold...oryZ7306QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Martyn]

Gorilla, if your after a damascus blade you can't go far wrong with one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Custom-Made-F...oryZ1403QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That's really cheap. Who makes the steel? From the pic, it has the look of Indian damascus which mixes mild steel into the layers, but the descriptions says 1095 and 15n20 which would be a good mix (though on BB there was an Indian seller who was selling what he claimed were 1095/15n20 blades which turned out to be 1060/mild steel - so it wouldn't be the first time the mix was "exaggerated"). But I dont know anyone making damascus outside of India selling it for that price.

 

[Martyn]

now i have well and truly got the knife bug, i am already thinking about my next buy. i love the look of damascus, but as a steel idiot, i am unsure as to whether the higher price is purely for the aesthetic qualities of the steel. the wikipedia entry for damascus is mainly concerned with the historical aspects of manufacture, and doesn't really give any kind of present-day information about how good/bad it is. obviously, i don't want to shell out a sizeable chunk of cash on a blade without knowing what i'm getting, so if you knowledgeable types out there could give me an idiots guide to the do's and don'ts that would be great. links to good blades, advice, recommendations - all good
thanks in advance

Well much depends on the damascus itself, though it's largely just aesthetic. Few steels are as good as a modern, homogenous steel, they are very uniform in content and structure. Damascus offers little if any benefit over that and a poor damascus will be significantly worse. Some argue that the weld lines give the knife a sort of serrated edge, which may enhance their cutting ability, but it's difficult to say really. The main reason for buying one, is because you like ghow they look and the clearly "forged" nature appeals to you. Or in the case of damasteel, it's not forged and purely aesthetics. But be warned, all that glitters isnt gold. Research your damascus because it varies from crap to excellent.

 

[Greg]

That's really cheap. Who makes the steel? From the pic, it has the look of Indian damascus which mixes mild steel into the layers, but the descriptions says 1095 and 15n20 which would be a good mix. But I dont know anyone making damascus outside of India selling it for that price.

You would have to speak to the seller!

 

[Martyn]

You would have to speak to the seller!

That's fair enough, I appreciate it very difficult/impossible to tell from just looking at the steel.

You dont happen to know his real name though do you?

There is nothing wrong particularly with the indian damascus, so long as you know what you are buying. Stone knives were adequate, bronze is better than stone, iron is better than bronze and steel is better than iron, but they are all functional. Problem with this indian damascus is the mild steel in the mix. Mild steel cant be hardened, so only the carbon steel portions are hard. This makes the blades inferior to plain carbon steel. Damascus made like this is generally used as "show" damscus rather than for competatively functional steel tools and have earned the rather pejorative nickname of "Damastyrene". It's the mild steel in the mix which tends to give it this quite distinctive "look" when etched. Instead of there being quite crisp lines, it tends to look a bit woolly. But like I said, almost impossible to tell. But that is a very cheap blade. That alone would make me a little suspicious. But if it really is 1095 and 15n20, it's a bargain.

Denis from Brisa has some Pakistan Damascus porpoting to be 1095 and 15n20, a blank of which is doing the rounds. It seems that the Indian damascus is getting better.

See:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49078

There was also a fella calling himself "Ancient Art" who was selling damasuc knives which were supposedly 1095 and 15n20, but there was some question over this.
See...
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48893

Looking at the sellers "other items", I would say it's a fair bet that these woodlore blanks are made from Indian Damascus, whether they are of the "better" quality, or the older Damastyrene I dunno. But I very much doubt that they are made from 1095 and 15n20, though they may be made from "some carbon steel" and "some bandsaw steel" which may approximate the 1095 and 15n20 alloys ...and certainly better than "some carbon steel" and "some mild steel" (Damastyrene).

 

[robin wood]

Now careful with that knife habit gorilla...one from Dougster, another nice little carving knife from BB yesterday and still after a Damascus knife and not long ago you were telling us you couldn't afford to feed the family decent food....

 

[Snufkin]

One might argue that a pattern welded blade is inferior to a single steel blade as the two steels will reach the desired hardness at different temperatures so one will be either too hard or too soft. This may only be a very minor difference and possibly not noticable but you'd be paying more for less. If the damascus was wrapped around a core then it wouldn't matter but then the pattern welding really is window dressing.
I personally much prefer the look of a forge finished blade but viv la difference!

 

[gorilla]

Now careful with that knife habit gorilla...one from Dougster, another nice little carving knife from BB yesterday and still after a Damascus knife and not long ago you were telling us you couldn't afford to feed the family decent food....

that's why i can't afford decent food!