camouflage why it works (or not) what insights do any one have on this?

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Countershading - three dimensional objects outdoors are usually lit from above and are light on top and dark underneath from shadow. Countershading is when an object is coloured darker on top and light underneath like a Thomson's gazelle http://images.google.com/images?q=t...ra&rls=en&hs=9N3&um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
Many birds and animals have this colouring, and the Thomson's gazelle also has stripes for enhanced disruptive effect.

So am I right thinking countershading is primarily for disruptive effect seeing as it doesnt operate within "normal" physical rules (light direction)? Might it be possible to have a pattern with such bold contrasts, or strong areas on a neutral background that the eye will be drawn only to those busy area's and possibly totally "miss" the body form? Is that the scenaro say with giraffe's zebra's etc and the gazelle in your link? all my life I thought how on earth does that level of brightness and contast in those african examples act as camo :confused: But then I was asuming the predator animal's see the same way as human's :notworthy , I now get the idea thats not the case :D Was the countershading concept in mind when they painted spitfir's etc pale underneath and camo'd above?
Thanks for your extremely intersting comments risclean and all you guy's, excellent
cheers Jonathan :)
PS are you able to say more about the far out technology woodsmok :D
 

sharp88

Settler
Aug 18, 2006
649
0
34
Kent
Countershading - three dimensional objects outdoors are usually lit from above and are light on top and dark underneath from shadow. Countershading is when an object is coloured darker on top and light underneath like a Thomson's gazelle http://images.google.com/images?q=t...ra&rls=en&hs=9N3&um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
Many birds and animals have this colouring, and the Thomson's gazelle also has stripes for enhanced disruptive effect.

That is quality, I have to say. Feels like were gettin somewhere.
 

Carcajou Garou

On a new journey
Jun 7, 2004
551
5
Canada
Zebras stripes all blend together/silhouetted in a herd, the predator has to really work at identifying which animal or part is connected with which stripe ensemble to set up his attack. They all melt together, next time when you see a herd look at it from the cats point of view.
If you look at older WWI and WWII naval B&W newsreels you will see many ships with extremely large sections of "camoflage" now this was before "radar" and such, imagine in a strobing cannonades of flashes and trying to ID an aiming point on or just a part of a ship, gets confusing doesn't it. Now do it with ships in a line, 3D same as the zebras stripes.
Know when to move, how to move and where to go almost like a chameleon rocking back and forth lulling its prey into false security.
I stopped wearing camo when hunting and even started to wash my clothes differently with no "brightners" in the soap and using natural scents native to the area.
 

commandocal

Nomad
Jul 8, 2007
425
0
UK
I dont plan to take it with me tourist, Im moving away from camoflauge while out camping now as if we ever get seen (currently my camping gear is brit DPM kit - as its cheap and bloody good) i always get the disrespectful comments of "ey up soldier" - "orite rambo" and the ever favourite "where in the army now" chants and Multicam would maybe work a bit better than DPM anyway and to these stupid people who give these comments they would not associate it with Military.

Anyway back to convo - I have a SI DPM basha and layed it out today about 3 ft of the ground and changed the shape with a few sticks underneath and it was hard to see in the underbrush of nettle's,blackberry/thorny bushes and it still shed water and blocked out the wind, I could still see it obviously it wasnt invisable but if you wasnt looking for it you wouldnt see it i dont think, the thing with a DPM basha is if there is light coming underneath it it becomes very light and loses the darkness of it and stand our a right treat¬
 

sharp88

Settler
Aug 18, 2006
649
0
34
Kent
Thats why I stopped wearing DPM in town. Always get some smart comment. Just tell em to get &*%£"@!...As long as there not bigger than you.
 

Risclean

Forager
Feb 28, 2007
122
0
48
North Highlands
I think Spitfire coulour was probably just blending, pale like the sky from below, green/brown like the ground from above.

Zebra stripes are about disrupting shape and confusing shape among a herd - no blening with the background at all. The same idea was used for the WW1 dazzle camouflage on ships.

Countershading and Thomson's gazelle type stripes would probably work pretty well for camouflaging against humans, certainly at medium to long distances (100 m plus). It would look funny up close, but no one would call you Rambo if your jacket looked like that. Of course Rambo wore an OG jacket in the first film and a black semmit after that.

The only comment I've had was when someone told me not to stand still because he couldn't see me.
 

commandocal

Nomad
Jul 8, 2007
425
0
UK
I think Spitfire coulour was probably just blending, pale like the sky from below, green/brown like the ground from above.

Zebra stripes are about disrupting shape and confusing shape among a herd - no blening with the background at all. The same idea was used for the WW1 dazzle camouflage on ships.

Countershading and Thomson's gazelle type stripes would probably work pretty well for camouflaging against humans, certainly at medium to long distances (100 m plus). It would look funny up close, but no one would call you Rambo if your jacket looked like that. Of course Rambo wore an OG jacket in the first film and a black semmit after that.

The only comment I've had was when someone told me not to stand still because he couldn't see me.

made me laugh :)
:lmao:
 

pumbaa

Settler
Jan 28, 2005
687
2
50
dorset
What about the old poachers favourite "Tweed" ? One of the first disruptive patterns . even if it does make you look like a geography teacher ! :lmao:
Pumbaa
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Zebras stripes all blend together/silhouetted in a herd, the predator has to really work at identifying which animal or part is connected with which stripe ensemble to set up his attack. They all melt together, next time when you see a herd look at it from the cats point of view.
If you look at older WWI and WWII naval B&W newsreels you will see many ships with extremely large sections of "camoflage" now this was before "radar" and such, imagine in a strobing cannonades of flashes and trying to ID an aiming point on or just a part of a ship, gets confusing doesn't it. Now do it with ships in a line, 3D same as the zebras stripes.
Know when to move, how to move and where to go almost like a chameleon rocking back and forth lulling its prey into false security.
I stopped wearing camo when hunting and even started to wash my clothes differently with no "brightners" in the soap and using natural scents native to the area.

So effectively the lion or other predator thinks its confronted by one huge amorphous animal? I was watching on tv where the small fish kept in a group and the pike had the same problem understanding where to attack :lmao:

It interst me (as a visual artist) that the dazzle patterns you refer to were conceived and desigend by fellow artists, based on observation and insight into visual perception etc. I saw those pics many years ago and always thought since then how could that act as camo cover, just looked like something inbetwen picasso cubism and Ken Noland hard edge abstarction?? If your trying to determine the trajectory/range for shell fire, if the dazzle camo fools you that the ship is closer or further than it really is, the artillery shot would not hit the target, is that the case? I even saw one original design where they put 2 ship silhouetes onto the side of 1 bigger ship :lmao: That would explian why they changed the patterns from time to time before the enemy got to know the real deal from aircraft spying etc??
Did you hear about the british magician as fooled the german's during ww2 that there was whole groups of tanks and other piece's etc when they were just plywood cut outs (like hollywood western store fronts) Jasper maskeleyne They sucessfully introduced confusion into the enemys minds as regards allied intentions

I liked what you said risclean about instantly staying still if you surprise an animal, its like that isnt what theyexpected? I saw another big frog yesterday, I noticed it only when it moved (IE it caught my attention "out the corner of my eye"), and even then my eye was drawn to the bold yellow stripes along its head and body I didnt really notice its outline.
who moved first the unter or the quarry??
cheers Jopnathan :)
 

Carcajou Garou

On a new journey
Jun 7, 2004
551
5
Canada
Risclean,
"Zebra stripes are about disrupting shape and confusing shape among a herd - no blening with the background at all."
The blending is with the herd (background) as a whole, not the bush or savanah.
Camo is blending with your background, does not always have to be your environment.

Predators target a specific animal in the herd and run it down in turn if need be, being part of the herd motion augments their survival chances.

Movement is a betrayor, but erractic or contrary movement to the wind and environment amplifies the predators ability to notice his prey (bolting). Predators in turn often stalk and stop/freeze as their prey feeds and lift up their head to look from time to time, the more eyes in the herd the greater the success in identifying a predators location before the attack is launched.
 

Jedadiah

Native
Jan 29, 2007
1,349
1
Northern Doghouse
How about spray cans? I already have a tonne of them in various colours. What would you think the staying power of those are? If there anything like cuprinol, very good.

On the subject of spray cans, when we were prpping for the first gulf war, we were issued brand new Berghaus Crusaders to take with us. They were an olive colour but nice and bright if you know what i mean. We attached them to the tow hooks of our Landrovers and took them for a drag over a large grassed area nearby to take the shine off them. Then we went to a local farm suppliers and purchased some spray paint they use for livestock. It was flexible so it was suitable for use on canvas etc. With different shades (light and dark browns) we managed to do a decent job on the bergans and webbing, and the camoflage pattern is still on the Bergans to this day! (don't know about the webbing as it was '58 pattern and thats been exchanged for green PLCE, then DPM PLCE and now and assault vest).

I've also been told recently that there is a company that does a flexible paint in spray cans that is popular with the Airsoft community, i'll try to dig out the name of it!
 

Tourist

Settler
Jun 15, 2007
507
1
Northants
I dont plan to take it with me tourist, Im moving away from camoflauge while out camping now as if we ever get seen (currently my camping gear is brit DPM kit - as its cheap and bloody good) i always get the disrespectful comments of "ey up soldier" - "orite rambo" and the ever favourite "where in the army now" chants and Multicam would maybe work a bit better than DPM anyway and to these stupid people who give these comments they would not associate it with Military.

I have worn camo twice since I left the Army (15 yrs ago) and TA (less): Once was a reservist thing for a morning in York, in the afternoon I went to University to catch a lecture and did not have time to change; the other time was a couple of years ago when I got an invite to go and jump with the US military, uniform only on military jumps.

Surprisingly at Uni no one said a dicky bird. But then again there was a small group of us that used to hold 'Sergeants Mess Meetings' in the Cafe of the Students Union.

As a camo pattern Multicam is as good as some and better than many, it does fit into the northern and central european area quite nicely. Like I said a mate of mine in Germany ran some camo trials with multicam as one of the patterns used, he reckoned it performed well. You can check out the multicam / crye precision sites - bearing in mind they want to sell it. Another site to check is http://www.militarymorons.com/ they also give their opinion.

And, Cal, you'll find that when you are paid to wear DPM people will not say anything, you get a tin of attitude and pride issued with your kit when you join ;)

I was talking to a guy today who is ex SB and he told me that they had experimented with a "predator" type cammo for use in jungle environs. ............ The rest of the conversation with him blew me away regarding the technology he used...:Wow:

There are all sorts of developments being put together for what you called 'Predator' and for what the industry calls 'Active Camoflage'. This is using technology to make the soldiers outerwear have the characteristics of a chamleon..........oh yes, its coming, well actually its here. Like thermal imaging, useless, cos the suits exist to defeat it.

On a very simple level imagine a tank or other vehicle with a large, very huge, LCD screen TV on the front. This screen is connected to a camera looking backwards from the vehicle so that the screen shows what is behind the vehicle. Ergo, if you stand in front of the vehicle you might hear it, but you probably will not see it as such. A simple explanation for a lot of technology.
 

sharp88

Settler
Aug 18, 2006
649
0
34
Kent
On the subject of spray cans, when we were prpping for the first gulf war, we were issued brand new Berghaus Crusaders to take with us. They were an olive colour but nice and bright if you know what i mean. We attached them to the tow hooks of our Landrovers and took them for a drag over a large grassed area nearby to take the shine off them. Then we went to a local farm suppliers and purchased some spray paint they use for livestock. It was flexible so it was suitable for use on canvas etc. With different shades (light and dark browns) we managed to do a decent job on the bergans and webbing, and the camoflage pattern is still on the Bergans to this day! (don't know about the webbing as it was '58 pattern and thats been exchanged for green PLCE, then DPM PLCE and now and assault vest).

I've also been told recently that there is a company that does a flexible paint in spray cans that is popular with the Airsoft community, i'll try to dig out the name of it!

I knew there had to be some soughta product like it lurkin about.:)
 

Risclean

Forager
Feb 28, 2007
122
0
48
North Highlands
Countershading makes 3D objects appear 2 dimensional because the visual cues used to identify them (shadows) are absent. Disruptive stripes like the Thomson's gazelle makes animals appear to be two separate objects which are very hard to indentify.

Navy blue is meant to be very hard to see at night, I've seen night camouflage patterns on the web.

Carcajou, yep thats clarfied the zebras stripes. Do you think it works for Newcastle United as well? :D

I like the look of Multicam. I think it would work well on wet moors, especially in wintertime. It is expensive though, £90 for a trouser from here http://www.combatservicesupport.co.uk/show_category.asp?cid=1555

Cheaper alternatives (lighter than DPM, Flecktarn etc with a fair bit of brown) might be Sumpfmuster, Norwegian camo and Advantage Timber. Desert tiger stripe might even be worth a look, though it's all brown http://www.militarykit.com/products/trousers/trousers_us_swat_tactical_desert_tiger_stripe.htm
 

Tourist

Settler
Jun 15, 2007
507
1
Northants
On the subject of spray cans, when we were prpping for the first gulf war, we were issued brand new Berghaus Crusaders to take with us. They were an olive colour but nice and bright if you know what i mean.......................

I've also been told recently that there is a company that does a flexible paint in spray cans that is popular with the Airsoft community, i'll try to dig out the name of it!

The bright shiny finish is due to the perfect spherical nature of the fibres used, they act like cat's eye's on the road and reflect light back giving a nice sheen to cordura. Interestingly some fibres are designed to reflect light as part of their 'pink appeal'. Any abuse of the fibres will generally remove the sheen / reflection - yes, I can see towing behind a Lanny working, a rub over with a fine grade sand paper and a dusting with IRR vehicle paint (using a spray gun) also works.

The flexible camo paint is KRYLON - give it a google.
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Disruptive stripes like the Thomson's gazelle makes animals appear to be two separate objects which are very hard to indentify.
So if a lion is sizing up this lot

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/corbis/dgt152/zebra-herd-drinking-at-water-hole-~-awi0013.jpg

they are confronted with a huge bridget riley type visual effect which will work equally as well with their monochrome vision? Far out :cool: :D They will have a job thinking wheres the belly, wheres the neck, wheres the flank's etc, and the longer they take the les likely they will make a sucessful kill (I think I heard they tire quickly if they have to run real fast)

Do these examples make use of countershading?
ripplecam1.jpg


050328PICT0237aa.jpg


I tried to create a surface which is difficult to assess how far away it is, some parts "receding" from and other parts "advancing" toward the viewer??

quickshot.jpg


95CAN-08-29-LarchStormaaa.jpg


Cheers Jonathan :)

PS Sharp 88 was that sample camo you posted your own design?
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Just another thought
If animal's can only see in monochrome (assumably this is black and white monochrome?) then why bother using any color at all in a hunting type camo? Why not just stick with black white and grey? Easier cheaper simpler.
Do ALL animals see only in monochrome, and how did the sceintist's discover that in the first place (I cant imagine taking a bear or something down to specasver's to get there eye's seen to) :D

Also Tourist, with the new hi tech camo concept you mentioned, if it abosorbs and reflects the colors/ambience etc from the surroundings how do they prevent it from also shining or reflecting sunlight that would be a give away? Is it anything to do with the chameloen t shirts they were selling a while back that responded to temperature or something and would change color?

cheers Jonathan :)
 

Tourist

Settler
Jun 15, 2007
507
1
Northants
Also Tourist, with the new hi tech camo concept you mentioned, if it abosorbs and reflects the colors/ambience etc from the surroundings how do they prevent it from also shining or reflecting sunlight that would be a give away? Is it anything to do with the chameloen t shirts they were selling a while back that responded to temperature or something and would change color?

cheers Jonathan :)

Dunno, my forte was in GIS not physics.

There has been a discovery channel proggie that touched on some of the non-classified concepts and looked at the technology involved. If you are deeply interested, check around you will probably find some research papers in US universities.
 

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE