Too true, Blue, too true. Once in a while you can be both though.....but that's a tale for another time
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blades taken by police - advice please
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Too true, Blue, too true. Once in a while you can be both though.....but that's a tale for another time
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I'm sure all you are dealing with here is two junior officers who just want to make sure they are correct in giving you these items back. Chill.
Hope you're right - the whole thing has left me rather deflated. I thought Bushcraft would be a great hobby as i became a (step)grandfather last year and love the idea of getting out shelter building etc with the wee man when he is older. I'm determined he won't be spending all his time on the playstation (or writing on internet forums lol). My intention is to practice as much as i can so i can then teach him.
I would just like to say hello and welcome to the forum Baldscot ,,,what a first post
Jason
Cheers Jason, didn't think i would have so many replies - thankfully most have been helpful / constructive.
Never considered involving the rangers - although one of the cops said he is based at their HQ in Balloch. I have met the same ones on a few occassions so this may be an option. cheers
Hopefully your predications don't become reality, it is a fair guess though, given their reaction so far.
As for no. of knives - i suppose you don't NEED any knives to go camping. I was trying to encourage some mates to get interested tho, hence the additional blades / saw. I had just got the Condor (after months of researching machetes, billhooks etc etc) and had the Mora because i thought this was part of bushcraft law! (also to let my mates try). The saw speaks for itself, had 2 because i didn't want anyone breaking my laplander. The folding knife is part of my cook-kit and the axe was just an addition for splitting, again so mates could have a go.
I would expect this question to be asked, but also expect the opportunity to respond - somehing this officer was determined i would not be doing (he constantly cut me off and spoke over me).
Laws in Scotland are different to laws in England and my comments are based on being a Policeman in England (so may be different).
Other than lock knives there aren't illegal knives in public per se. Intended usage, circumstances and carriage all play a role. However Police cannot say what is illegal that is for a judge to say. We can only investigate, form an opinion and decide whether to let it go or arrest/summons and seize then let others decide later. Unfortunately that's why there's no consistency because human nature and experience is mixed with something that isn't definitive.
On the face of it, it sounds you had legitimate reasons for having the knives on both occasions and hopefully the Officers just aren't sure and are just making certain before returning them to you. The seizing at the station seems strange to me as if you were asked to take them to the station then you had legal/legitimate reason for possessing them in public and therefore continued legal reason to carry them home again after (hidden well out of immediate reach of course!). Plus if they left you with the knives at the time thinking you were committing an offence they have technically aided you in the offence by letting you keep them on your person.
Whilst at a later date you can be summonsed for an offence, there would be no right of seizure without a warrant because the incident has passed and you are no longer in public and committing the offence. Unfortunately you handed them over, peoples ignorance is sometimes a useful tool!
Biggest problem is the amount of knives/tools you had so probably that's why things have gone so far.
As I say things might be different North of the border, although on a quick google search it seems the laws are pretty similar. I hope you get them back but more importantly don't let it put you off, just learn what you can from the experience and carry on. Good luck.
Other than lock knives there aren't illegal knives in public per se. Intended usage, circumstances and carriage all play a role. However Police cannot say what is illegal that is for a judge to say. We can only investigate, form an opinion and decide whether to let it go or arrest/summons and seize then let others decide later. Unfortunately that's why there's no consistency because human nature and experience is mixed with something that isn't definitive.
On the face of it, it sounds you had legitimate reasons for having the knives on both occasions and hopefully the Officers just aren't sure and are just making certain before returning them to you. The seizing at the station seems strange to me as if you were asked to take them to the station then you had legal/legitimate reason for possessing them in public and therefore continued legal reason to carry them home again after (hidden well out of immediate reach of course!). Plus if they left you with the knives at the time thinking you were committing an offence they have technically aided you in the offence by letting you keep them on your person
. Whilst at a later date you can be summonsed for an offence, there would be no right of seizure without a warrant because the incident has passed and you are no longer in public and committing the offence. Unfortunately you handed them over, peoples ignorance is sometimes a useful tool!
Biggest problem is the amount of knives/tools you had so probably that's why things have gone so far.
As I say things might be different North of the border, although on a quick google search it seems the laws are pretty similar. I hope you get them back but more importantly don't let it put you off, just learn what you can from the experience and carry on. Good luck.
Off to bed now - thanks to everyone for the support and advice, i really appreciate it. To those who think "something strange is going on" - i wish i had the imagination (and time) to come up with this.
I will keep this updated - would it be best to just add to this thread or start a new one in terms of posting the outcome?
Thanks again
Scott
I will keep this updated - would it be best to just add to this thread or start a new one in terms of posting the outcome?
Thanks again
Scott
post it in here mate, and i really do wish you the very best of luck and hope you get all your kit back ........... stay safe.
........... stay safe.
It's far too late for this but - Oh dearie me.
I did'nt study law at A Level but I know for a fact that your above post is so wrong that it's scary. We don't have A Levels in Scotland, you see, so I had to make do with a law degree, and then I trained in, and have specialised in criminal law for the last 20 years and run my own criminal defence practice, in Scotland.
Mens rea and actus rea are not quite as you have tried to describe, but the real problem is your last two statements, which are the direct opposite of the law and always have been, in England as well , by the way.
Knife related offences are treated extremely seriously by courts in Scotland, with a great deal of political pressure on the current way the law is enforced but also with a view to creating mandatory imprisonment for those "carrying knives" which is the simplistic view.
To baldscot - firstly, none of the items you describe in your OP are illegal to own although there are certain restrictions on their lawful use in public places, which is what the police at the campsite will have been concerned about. That , as stated by others, is in fact entirely irrelevant to the taking of the items at the police station. As none of the items are prohibited they cannot be taken without reason nor your permission. As you were there on a prearranged appointment to discuss them, you had a reasonable excuse for having them in your possession at that time. Reasonable excuse is the pertinent factor as we are not dealing with offensive weapons - ( this is S.47 of the Criminal Law ( Consolidation ) Scotland Act 1995 and relates to items which are by nature deemed to be offensive weapons or items intended for or adapted for use as offensive weapons ) but the far more common bladed or pointed item ( S.49 of the same Act ).
Again as stated already, we don't really have cautions here , there is something approaching that but it would neve be used in a case involving knives or blades due to the already mentioned politics. Any detention or arrest let alone conviction could affect your career because I believe from your described work that you would be subject to Enhanced Disclosure and the police can put forward pretty much anything against you for that - I've even seen them stating that someone was unsuitable because the had been found NOT guilty of an offence. That being the case , your comments about what it may cost to employ a solicitor are a false economy so .....
You DO need to speak to a solicitor , not a conveyancer or divorce lawyer but a criminal specialist and quickly. The police will be in no hurry at all to reply to you and may simply hope that you go away and don't bother them again. You may be eligible for legal advice and assistance legal aid, even though working. Although it pains me to say so as I wholly disgree with the concept of them - you could also try the Public Defence Solicitors Office as there is one in Glasgow - near the Saltmarket from memory. There is no duty solicitor for you to speak to, as the duty solicitor scheme in Scotland relates only to those in custody and appearing from custody at court. The CAB will be of no use in a situation like this either, it's not set up for criminal law problems.
Just quickly - before I fall asleep! Balisong knives, flick knives, gravity knives, push daggers, belt buckle knives, concealed or swordstick blades are all wholly illegal and offensive weapons per se in the UK. Lock Knives are not illegal per se ( per se means of and in themselves ) and can be carried if there is a legal reason to do so such as a tool for a specific and ongoing job but courts are more and more disinclined to agree that reasons are legal - even so I know many police officers who carry locking blades.
since when are lock knives illegal?
gravity knives, knuckle knives and flick knife have been defined in law as offensive weapons but 'lock knives' are prefectly legal - case law simply stated they are akin to fixed blades rather than slippies - not in any way illegal
personally i would make a formal complaint against the officer for an act of theft,
"anyone who dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanantly depriving them of it." ,commits theft, 1968 theft act.
this police officer has commited theft in that he 'dishonestly appropriated' in that he did not keep to the law in confiscation of your property,did he give you a reciept?
the police think they are the law,they are not,they work for us and they to must obey your laws. you had a perfectly good reason to have those knives on you. if you dont complain and get your property back you enbolden and encourage this sort of disgusting behaviour by our employees,they hope that fear will keep you from standing up to them when you are in the right,remember the law applies to them as well as you.(thankfully not me!)
"anyone who dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanantly depriving them of it." ,commits theft, 1968 theft act.
this police officer has commited theft in that he 'dishonestly appropriated' in that he did not keep to the law in confiscation of your property,did he give you a reciept?
the police think they are the law,they are not,they work for us and they to must obey your laws. you had a perfectly good reason to have those knives on you. if you dont complain and get your property back you enbolden and encourage this sort of disgusting behaviour by our employees,they hope that fear will keep you from standing up to them when you are in the right,remember the law applies to them as well as you.(thankfully not me!)
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Well speaking as another Policeman, in Wales rather than England though we have the same legal basis, unlike Scotland - certain knives are defined as offensive weapons in themselves, regardless of useage. Lock knives though aren't one of them. Many people carry lock knives including, for example, opinels, so long as they have lawful excuse. They must be carried for an immediate purpose so carrying one about 'in case I decide to go camping' won't do.
If we are going on a picnic I take an opinel - lawful reason - but could not just carry one in my car. When camping, with a fire, I have axes in the car/on the bike. Just driving about - no way.
At work I frequently carry a multi tool with locking knife - it has been useful to force entry and cut down hanging bodies for example, but would not carry it off duty. Off duty I have a selection of EDC pen knives (NATO/Army type is my favourite).
What is written about it being a matter for the judge/magistrates is quite correct, though we can offer cautions in certain circumstances.
I have no knowledge of the law in Scotland.
If we are going on a picnic I take an opinel - lawful reason - but could not just carry one in my car. When camping, with a fire, I have axes in the car/on the bike. Just driving about - no way.
At work I frequently carry a multi tool with locking knife - it has been useful to force entry and cut down hanging bodies for example, but would not carry it off duty. Off duty I have a selection of EDC pen knives (NATO/Army type is my favourite).
What is written about it being a matter for the judge/magistrates is quite correct, though we can offer cautions in certain circumstances.
I have no knowledge of the law in Scotland.
Good luck with THAT one - you prove an element of dishonesty as laid out in R v GHOSH and I'll eat my hat. And yours, if you like.
The OP has very little to worry about - all that remains is for him to return to the Police Station and ask for his property back. He has not committed any offences, assuming that the Criminal Law Act is not wildly differ in Scotland. The Police have retained his property with the best of intentions but perhaps without legal legitimacy. Ask for your kit back, if it isn't forthcoming ask to speak to the Duty Sergeant with a view to making a complaint. You probably won't actually need to make a formal complaint - the mere mention of one will oil the wheels and you'll 99% be reunited with your clobber. If not, write a letter to the Force Solicitor and explain that your equipment has been seized and retained unlawfully, and that until it is returned, you will be charging rent for it's hire by the Police Force of, say, £20 per day.
Oh, and next time, don't take a machete camping. No need, really.
Let's say you got pulled over by a traffic cop and he remarked that the tread on your tyre was on the limit and to 'be on your way' but he doesn't want to see you again.
Would you then go to the police station a week later with the same tyre and ask if was/wasn't ok to continue driving on it?
Would you then go to the police station a week later with the same tyre and ask if was/wasn't ok to continue driving on it?
You are of course right, I was just trying to keep things relevant as the other knives aren't likely to be carried by 'bushcrafters' and the like.
Lock knives need to have a legal reason to be carried no matter what the length in contrast to normal knives. In my experience (in London) you're more likely than not gonna get into trouble for a lock knife if your not using it for direct work purposes. The courts really don't like lock knives.
Lock knives need to have a legal reason to be carried no matter what the length in contrast to normal knives. In my experience (in London) you're more likely than not gonna get into trouble for a lock knife if your not using it for direct work purposes. The courts really don't like lock knives.
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