2010 election & changes to knife law

[locum76]

How will it settle down Locum, when the criminals are still armed and the general public are now defenceless

Why should it calm down? Maybe criminals feeling sorry for the victims? That'll be a first.

Nah you're misunderstanding me. My point is that I think if you introduce a new law (any law) people who had previously been carrying out the newly illegal activity may keep carrying out that activity. There will be an increase recorded cases of crime because the cops may be catching people unawares.

For example, in NZ there was an increase in gun crime after they introduced the law you mentioned. This does not neccessarily mean more people get shot it probably just means that folk have been caught with a gun on them, thus increasing the level of general gun crime.

I was just being pedantic really. I guess one of us wil have to look up a table with the breakdown of the stats to be sure.

 

[salan]

i don't see how licensing can do any harm if you've nothing to hide why kick up a fuss?

I know that I am taking this out of context, but this phrase is so often used without the full concequence of it being understood.
"If you have nothing to hide then...."
where does it stop?
Lets say that to stop all plane bombings everyone that flies, has to have a FULL body cavity search. I think the queue to complain would be very long!
"But if you have nothing to hide....."
The statement makes the assumption that if you object then you HAVE something to hide.
That is not usually the case.
Unfortunately in this country, we are fast becoming a nation of guilty until you can prove youre inocence.
Again I have taken this phrase out of context but for a reason so apologies to the poster.
Alan

 

[Jericho]

I know that I am taking this out of context, but this phrase is so often used without the full concequence of it being understood.
"If you have nothing to hide then...."
where does it stop?
Lets say that to stop all plane bombings everyone that flies, has to have a FULL body cavity search. I think the queue to complain would be very long!
"But if you have nothing to hide....."
The statement makes the assumption that if you object then you HAVE something to hide.
That is not usually the case.
Unfortunately in this country, we are fast becoming a nation of guilty until you can prove youre inocence.
Again I have taken this phrase out of context but for a reason so apologies to the poster.
Alan

Totally agree.
If you're not one of us, then you're one of them!

 

[Minotaur]

Other than that go the other way and make it legal for EVERYONE to carry a knife, just see knife crime fall, as it would make everyone equal, not give the street scum the advantage.

If they passed a self defense carry law I would be the first person dancing in the street, but a knife is not a defense weapon. It is an offense weapon.

This was proven when they brought out very recently new legislation in OZ, they banned the carrying of hand guns, gun crime instantly shot through the ceiling, as the good guys had handed in their weapons and the scum kept theirs, thereby the government had just given the scum the best upper hand they could ever wish for.

The good guys were now the victims and could NEVER defend themselves.

To be honest I think that is why they are making such a big deal about knife crime here. Spin they call it.

The people we have campaining against knives are hypocryts, what the hell do they use to cut up their food in the kitchen, their hands??? most knife crimes are with kitchen knives anyway, when your avarage gang member is faced with the choice of eihter:

A. ordering a handmade knife from the internet, parting with around £100 and waiting a week before he can cary it as a weapon?

or B. Go into his mums kitchen drawer, nick her 7" carving knife, shove it down his trousers and be on his way?

what does he do?? its common sence but the poloticians who have never seen the other side to knife use are fixated on the Evil and malice accosiated with knives.

That why they are not finding out what is actual used. My money is on stanley knifes, and kitchen knives, being the big winners. Be very interesting to see the figures on this. Someone mentioned a report but he was having major hassle getting hold of it.t

 

[poddle]

Alan, you have made very valid points many of which I agree on.

I would just like a law that defines US from THEM, making the difference irrefutable.

As it stands this is not the case, and many grey areas exist, areas that the innocent frequently fall foul to.

Sort it out is what I say, and this legislation is insufficient, they will not relax the laws, so in order for us to be put in the clear, they will have to tighten them, as staying the same does not work

 

[hog]

Britain is about to become more of a police state than ever.
Talk about eroding your liberties.

 

[Minotaur]

Britain is about to become more of a police state than ever.
Talk about eroding your liberties.

We have only ever had the liberties we can buy, just got worse under the current group of villains.

The big worry for me, is with the damage they have done, are we about to get a big protest vote to a party that will use that.

 

[Trev]

I would just like a law that defines US from THEM, making the difference irrefutable.

It would be nice , but I worry that when it comes to getting a license most of "US" would be classed as "THEM" .
My primary job is a carer , I doubt that cutting things for a hobby would look good on paper .
Then again I only carry a knife when I can justify it as a tool anyway , so as it stands I'm ok .
And I was thinking what sort of criteria would be needed for a license , if it's say something like your an angler . Then all the numpty needs to do is join a club and wahayy knife ahoy .
Even if your job demanded the use of a knife and guarenteed a license I imagine the license would be worth jack **** if you wandered about town with it .
Think I rambled a bit , was sure I had a point when I started this post , thinking too fast for my fingers I think .
Trev .

 

[poddle]

It would be nice , but I worry that when it comes to getting a license most of "US" would be classed as "THEM" .
My primary job is a carer , I doubt that cutting things for a hobby would look good on paper .
Then again I only carry a knife when I can justify it as a tool anyway , so as it stands I'm ok .
And I was thinking what sort of criteria would be needed for a license , if it's say something like your an angler . Then all the numpty needs to do is join a club and wahayy knife ahoy .
Even if your job demanded the use of a knife and guarenteed a license I imagine the license would be worth jack **** if you wandered about town with it .
Think I rambled a bit , was sure I had a point when I started this post , thinking too fast for my fingers I think .
Trev .

Trev, if you read my post earlier, I said that I have a firearms licence, I can now go anywhere I choose with my guns in a slip, no further explanation is required as I have proven why I wish to own them, and carry them. Exactly the same thing could be applied to carrying knives in a PUBLIC place, which is the crux of the discussion.
If you cannot demonstrate good reason, then clearly you don't need a knife.

I really don't see the problem

 

[Trev]

Poddle ,
I meant no disrespect , from your posts on this forum I understand you have "justification" for being able to carry what you do .
But , I assume that getting out your guns and loading the ammo would take a fair bit of thought .
Pulling your knife could be done in a split second of pique .

Cheers , Trev .

 

[poddle]

Poddle ,
I meant no disrespect , from your posts on this forum I understand you have "justification" for being able to carry what you do .
But , I assume that getting out your guns and loading the ammo would take a fair bit of thought .
Pulling your knife could be done in a split second of pique .

Cheers , Trev .

Trev, no offence taken.
I could load the gun and discharge it through the slip.

I could also un-slip it in seconds, and to be honest if I wanted to do some one harm I'm damned if I would bother with a knife, simply too impractical. I like every other FAC holder is potentially far more dangerous than a knife holder.

A license would only be given to those that can demonstrate that they are of sound position. Clearly some fear they would not be granted one.

If you are a regular guy pursuing a genuine pastime then that's fine, the police are not gullible when it comes to sorting out licences.

I am sure it will never happen though, so everyone relax.

 

[magicaldr]

Well I for one enjoyed the debate, I can see how peeps get bored with the arguments that no doubt do seem circular, but I have also been worried by the tough talk on knives. I stay legal if I can, but try to find out what is legal and all you get is advice on why you should not carry a blade for defence and the penalties (from the official sites anyway, sites like this had the real facts).

So what does all this tough talk do, if anyone gets a chance please ask any politician. (I am not for any particular party) From what I have seen it just scares the public. My 1 inch spydaco folder (legal EDC) has been known to get the odd gasp, its 1 inch for goodness sake, and peeps are scared of it when I am opening packaging or similar.

In my own home when we had guests over I used my mora to cut something and put it back in its sheath. The look on a couple of peoples faces, sheer terror. Yet I can slice cheese with a 6 inch chefs blade and no one bats an eyelid.

So if anyone can mention to the politicians we are all behind you stopping knife crime, provided that means stabbings and intimidation with a knife. Not if it means arresting everyone who owns a pen-knife as they bite their nails, and EU packaging is so tough these days you need a knife to get into it. Lets see if (and I think this was the threads point) we can get some real detail behind the 1 line headlines on what they actually mean.

 

[Neumo]

Personally I don't think that licensing is the answer as I think you loose more than you gain. It would still require the police to enforce it & they would need more education before that would work as everybody would want it to. The danger is that we end up with laws where you can get arrested & sent to jail for many years for something that is not really a danger to the public & your fate depends on if the copper likes you or not. In other words it becomes a lottery for the law abiding people while the people who should be stopped by the new laws keep on doing what they have been doing for years, which is carrying a knife for the sole intention of threatening or harming other humans.

 

[durulz]

Out of interest, has anyone tried opening debate on this with a local MP?
I agree these debates on this forum are a good thing, but it would be good to see them lead somewhere.
So, has anyone ever tried having this discussion with someone in authority (not just the local beat officer) on how legitimate knife-users may suffer?
If not, then should we, as a group, try to prompt such debate?
Otherwise we just become navel-gazers.
We all have genuine concerns and we are all constituents; as such this debate should lead someone. We've done the talking (MANY MANY MANY times!), so let's get on with actually doing something and regsitering our concern.
So how do we take this discussion forward?

 

[poddle]

I like the way the thread has turned.

Modern day people have grown accustomed to a knife being a weapon, gone are the days of old when you took your shotgun down to the post office to get or renew your gun licence.

People have become watered down, and have no association with the old ways, something I think that bush-craft is strongly associated with so here we have the past clashing with the present and the future.

In times gone by, everyone would have carried a knife of some type as things did not come in a cellophane wrapper, food was eaten straight from the field and the general public were more dexterous than many that have been bred over the last 30 years.

This is evident by the total lack of gun and knife crime in rural areas, were these "implements" are in common everyday use.

The bulk of the populous has been forced into the city, were they have their first experience with guns and knives, but unfortunately its at the hands of a street thug or criminal, not the local gamekeeper.

I ran a shooting club in the skittle alley of a local pub for some 20 years and it was rather funny when folk came in from the city and saw rifles stacked around the walls of the pub on a Wednesday night, not all of them covered

They loved it actually, and were also fascinated by the brace of pheasant hung on the hat stand. It brought about much conversation, and still the police turned up, handing me kids that had been caught playing up with air rifles in the local cities and towns.
They brought them to us for retraining, all of which became good safe shots in the end.
The cops would walk straight past the rifles hung by their straps on the coat hangers. It was the norm, and totally socially acceptable
They were happy with what we were doing, the landlord loved it and so did the townies, we were a rustic blast from the past

Sadly the laws don't really allow fully for the rustic, let alone the rustic eccentric , so here we are trapped in the middle in a world of ambiguity.

ATB

 

[Minotaur]

Sadly the laws don't really allow fully for the rustic, let alone the rustic eccentric , so here we are trapped in the middle in a world of ambiguity.

ATB

The problem is that all of this is media driven. You only have to look at some of the laws passed recently to realise, they do not care about doing the right thing, they only want to be seen doing something.

 

[poddle]

Dead right Minotaur.

If in doubt, smother it in red tape and bureaucracy, that's the motto of the last 30 years.

 

[Hangman]

Minotaur, I'm still trying to get a copy of the met report - I contacted my local MP's to see if they could help and ask what thier positions were on knife crime and the poor (IMO) manner in which the law is being implemented - all basically mouthed the party line. So very sad, when I mentioned that I work for a local bushcraft school and the potential problems with increased and (poorly targeted) legislation the consensus seemed to be that it was regretable but the price to pay for 'public safety'.

Mind you in Essex we had our current chief constable state when he took up the post that there was only one use for a knife and that is to kill.

 

[Hangman]

The problem is that all of this is media driven. You only have to look at some of the laws passed recently to realise, they do not care about doing the right thing, they only want to be seen doing something.

CYNIC MODE ON: Why take time to sort out a reasoned response (and be castigated by the opposition and the press) when you can rush out ill thought out, ill targeted and ineffective legislation that panders to the screams of 'something must be done' ? CYNIC MODE OFF

 

[Minotaur]

So very sad, when I mentioned that I work for a local bushcraft school and the potential problems with increased and (poorly targeted) legislation the consensus seemed to be that it was regretable but the price to pay for 'public safety'.

Why do I hear heels click, and think of black/brown shirts.

Mind you in Essex we had our current chief constable state when he took up the post that there was only one use for a knife and that is to kill.

Nice to see it not only Sir Ian Blair who was bribed all the way to the top.

CYNIC MODE ON: Why take time to sort out a reasoned response (and be castigated by the opposition and the press) when you can rush out ill thought out, ill targeted and ineffective legislation that panders to the screams of 'something must be done' ? CYNIC MODE OFF

Why bother indeed! I mean we are all to stupid or pointless to see them tried for their crimes anyway.