London riots

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shaggystu

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2003
4,345
33
Derbyshire
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/Middle-class-to-take-looting-lessons-201108084167/

Well lets breed a generation and convince them that success is a new pair of trainers and a 50" plasma tv, bring them up from age 2 to covet material goods and if you can achieve it without having to work hard so much the better, pop stardom, soccer stars, lottery winners this is what we breed them to admire. Then we give them little or no chance of achieving that material success by legal means and suddenly one day they see it's all there for the taking. Well of course they should have more self control like you or I but I think we also need to admit that the avarice and conspicuous consumption which is the base of capitalism is a contributory factor. A good friend is currently on the street in Lewisham with 5 miles to get home from workshop so thoughts are with all the folk that are affected.

well said that man, i hope your friend gets home alright
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
...we give them little or no chance of achieving that material success by legal means and suddenly one day they see it's all there for the taking. Well of course they should have more self control like you or I but I think we also need to admit that the avarice and conspicuous consumption which is the base of capitalism is a contributory factor...

Not sure I agree. How do you explain Sam Walton? Born to a family of poor dirt farmers and raised in the Depression. Early jobs included waiting on tables and a paper route. Yet he built Walmartinto the largest retail chain on Earth. All BECAUSE of capitalism.

No, everybody won't make it to the top. But the point is EVERYBODY has an equal chance regardless of background.
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
No, everybody won't make it to the top. But the point is EVERYBODY has an equal chance regardless of background.

I see your 1st grade conditioning served you well. It's probably true but some folk are more equal than others.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,937
4,570
S. Lanarkshire
Not sure I agree. How do you explain Sam Walton? Born to a family of poor dirt farmers and raised in the Depression. Early jobs included waiting on tables and a paper route. Yet he built Walmartinto the largest retail chain on Earth. All BECAUSE of capitalism.

No, everybody won't make it to the top. But the point is EVERYBODY has an equal chance regardless of background.

Sounds good in practice, but the reality is that for one who even moderately succeeds, 10,000 don't and just get by.
Frustration and resentment build. Society no longer has 'know your place' indoctrinated into it, thankfully, and the constant encouragement to buy, borrow, and have it all hype just adds more pressure.

No getting away from the reality on the ground, which is just so far beyond decent behaviour that those people cannot be considered anything but criminal now, but it is the understanding and easing of the social deprivation that will stop it happening again.

There are no jobs, not even waiting on tables, poor people don't get papers delivered, and those wealthy enough to do so have long established newsagents who are picky over who they employ.

When the bills coming in for rent, fuel and food overwhelm any attempt at budgeting, not just for the occasional week, or month after month, but for years at a time; the young scorn the rules of do not steal, do not damage property, etc..

It's not just a London phenomenon, but a worldwide one. That it is happening in a socially benevolent society is the biggest shock.
We do provide free at the point of treatment healthcare, for everyone.
We do provide social housing, though that's no longer available for all, but social services will provide rent and rates for those whose income falls below certain levels.
We do provide for those with young families.
We do provide good free schooling and meals for those in need, and clothing allowances.

Too many though, even with those aspects taken care of, are stuck in a no hope of change or improvement lifestyles and constantly bombarded with images of those who have it all.
Of all the hype of the folks who claim that benefit mentality needs to be destroyed, damned few live in inner city schemes and towerblocks where even our quiet wanders into countryside are totally unknown.

I work in an inner city area at times; folks are really the salt of the earth :) but you know what their kids want to be when they grow up ?
Drug dealers.
Because the drug dealers are the only ones in their society with money. Rolls of money in their pockets, designer gear, bling, respect, fancy cars, posh stuff in their houses, influence, holidays......

How do the police fight that ? It's engrained in their society.

Easy answers would be wonderful, but there aren't any.

With any luck the rain will drive them home and let things cool down, and then we see what new restrictions are going to be imposed on everyone in response :sigh:

Heartfelt sympathy for those who don't want to be involved and have no choice.

Toddy
 

mace242

Native
Aug 17, 2006
1,015
0
52
Yeovil, Somerset, UK
Not sure I agree. How do you explain Sam Walton? Born to a family of poor dirt farmers and raised in the Depression. Early jobs included waiting on tables and a paper route. Yet he built Walmartinto the largest retail chain on Earth. All BECAUSE of capitalism.

No, everybody won't make it to the top. But the point is EVERYBODY has an equal chance regardless of background.

Perhaps it's because his father in law loaned him the money for his first store? All equal if you have rich relatives I suppose...
 

robin wood

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 29, 2007
3,054
1
derbyshire
www.robin-wood.co.uk
Tunisia, Algeria, Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain, Egypt, Libya now London. I wonder which side the UN will come down on?

Gordy

They take to the streets for freedom, we take to the streets to relieve the boredom.
After 2 pages of "send the troops in" and "string em up" posts I was expecting a slating, glad I am not the only one who thinks it is a complex long term problem.

The immediate problem here is that policing is a bit like heavy horse handling, the horse is far stronger than you and the whole thing relies on tricking the horse into thinking you can control it, once it bolts once and finds how easy it is and how weak you are then it learns it can go whenever it wants. Not easy getting it back, needs a firm steady hand.
 

Wilderbeast

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 9, 2008
2,036
9
32
Essex-Cardiff
This is the sort of thing I would love to have a real debate about but it's too difficult on a forum as text can be very misleading......

As such I will share with you a Facebook page I just 'Liked', taken from the cult film 'Shaun of the dead':

"Going to the Winchester, and waiting for all this to blow over."

:beerchug::beerchug::beerchug::beerchug::beerchug::beerchug:
 

Silverhill

Maker
Apr 4, 2010
909
0
41
Derbyshire
I'm in Hackney as I type, and everything seems fairly normal with the exception of a few more sirens and police than the average day. The only evidence I've seen is a branch of the Money Shop on Bethnal Green Road with it's front window smashed. Everyone has something to say on the matter down here, and the general consensus appears that the looting will continue until the police take a stronger approach.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
Not sure I agree. How do you explain Sam Walton? Born to a family of poor dirt farmers and raised in the Depression. Early jobs included waiting on tables and a paper route. Yet he built Walmartinto the largest retail chain on Earth. All BECAUSE of capitalism.

I think you could have picked a better example, IBM for instance, Wallmart are possibly one of the best examples of what is wrong with capitalism, anti-union, pushing suppliers to source products from outside the US, tax avoidance, meddling in politics (local and national) etc. etc.

No, everybody won't make it to the top. But the point is EVERYBODY has an equal chance regardless of background.

It is a wild guess, but you are not black are you?

:) <-smiley face
 

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