Knives for Scouts

[Lizziecanoe]

My son has just returned from Scout camp very sad!

He wasn't allowed to use his knife (they all bought their own) for wood carving as it was deemed unsuitable.

His knife is a Clipper in good condion and newly sharpend.

When I arrived at the camp to drop him off I handed the knife over to the leader (for safe keeping)Her son was standing in the tent hacking at a stick with a blunt Swiss Army knife.

As a Bushcraft qualified outdoor instructor I teach 10 year olds green wood carving using clippers! I am seriously questioning the Scout associations practice. I would have thought that a pen knife without locking blade was hardly the ideal tool for teaching woodcarving.

Your thoughts please!

 

[malente]

"deemed unsuitable"? That sounds ridiculous!

 

[joejoe]

i would ask why her son was allowed to use the sak

 

[Mesquite]

My son has just returned from Scout camp very sad!

He wasn't allowed to use his knife (they all bought their own) for wood carving as it was deemed unsuitable.

His knife is a Clipper in good condion and newly sharpend.

When I arrived at the camp to drop him off I handed the knife over to the leader (for safe keeping)Her son was standing in the tent hacking at a stick with a blunt Swiss Army knife.

As a Bushcraft qualified outdoor instructor I teach 10 year olds green wood carving using clippers! I am seriously questioning the Scout associations practice. I would have thought that a pen knife without locking blade was hardly the ideal tool for teaching woodcarving.

Your thoughts please!

Looking at all the various threads on this forum where scouts use and even make fixed blade knives I'm more inclined to believe it's not the Scouts Associations practice but rather poorly trained patrol leaders who are afraid or don't know how to teach proper knife skills.

Perhaps you ought to have a word with his leader and offer your experience and skill to train them up so they know better

 

[Lizziecanoe]

That is what I thought! Does anyone know if there is anything online about the Scout associations guidance on these things. I am a bit worried about the whole thing.... safety, not just best practice.

 

[roger-uk]

There is guidance but the allowing and use of knives is up to each Scout Leader. In our group all knives are kept in a leaders box and used under supervision. We have a young troop. Having said that one scout on last camp handed over with his parents two 9" sheath knives which can only be described as "Rambo" style.

She was alittle upset when we asked for them to b etaken home and he could use some of the groups knives [Mori Clippers] - also a little puzzled when we pointed out we hoped she was not stopped on the way home

Unfortuntaley not all parents or Leaders have the experince and knowledge to do this properly.

Tell them your a bushcraft instructor they should bite your hands of when you offer to do some training - I would.

 

[mrcharly]

I would suggest approaching the camp leader and asking what about the Mora Clipper was 'unsuitable'?

Also do take with a pinch of salt your son's description. I have 6 children and I've been a part-time teacher, so I'm well aware of how children's repeating of events can be coloured by their feelings.

Your son might have wanted to do some carving at a time when the instructor/leader was leaving them unsupervised, and the leader didn't want the kids to have a large knife at that time (see Roger's comments about keeping knives in a box).

My opinion is that it's likely your son was being instructed by someone unskilled and lacking in confidence, and hence that person didn't understand that a sharp fixed blade would be safer than a small SAK.

 

[Lumber Jack]

Lizziecanoe;

I've just phoned a friend of mine. He's quite high up in the local scout groups (I couldn't tell you what he does/rank). I know he deals with the taking on of new instructors ect. So he'll probably be able to shed some light on it. He's ringing me back when he's spoke to his head honcho.


LJ

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Yes, this is definitely not Scout Assn. policy, just a case of a particular leader that doesn't really know what they are talking about. With all leaders being volunteers, there will be gaps in knowledge. Most Scout Groups I know use Clippers, including ours (we have a load for Unit use, and also purchased a further load that we sell onto the Scouts once they have received adequate training and upon receipt of a parental consent form). Our Explorers, once they have received the training and we are confident in their abilities, are free to carry and use their knives for the duration of a camp.

Unfortunately, there remain individuals who through a lack of experience/training themselves still view a smaller knife as automatically a safer knife. I can understand your frustrations and recommend a friendly informal approach to the leadership team, as mentioned above- possibly offering to run a bushcraft taster session one weekday evening may do the trick- add into the programme a 10 minute summary on 'tool selection', and with the leaders watching you will have educated them without having to make a direct approach potentially causing embarrassment!

 

[Lumber Jack]

Okay,

This obviously isn't going to be word for word as my memory is bloody terrible. But this is the general jist.

The use of personal knives is at the discretion of the scout leader. Most scout groups carry with them a supply of SAK which is deemed more suitable than a larger fixed blade knife. The aim is to educate the youngsters in knife crime first, in the hope that the message filters from them into the wider community. They are given a presentation on knife crime also. The SAK is a small knife which can be folded and put away. A larger fixed blade knife can be dangerous when left exposed and in a group of youngsters the possibility of that happening is very real.
He also mentioned the knock on process of carrying a large knife has... If one scout see's a large knife, he's going to go home and ask for one from his parents. With peer pressure and the situation with knife crime in the UK, we(the scout organisation) have to be very careful. Any blade that is deemed "cheap & unsuitable", "too large", "too menacing" or "too dangerous" will be confiscated by the scout leader. a SAK is discrete, portable and whilst still dangerous, is less dangerous than larger fixed blade knives.

He also told me to pass on that the scout leader has to first decide if the scout in question has sufficient knowledge in the use of knives. If he hasn't then he'll be given a tried and tested knife that the scouts use. (SAK I imagine) and supervised through out.

He also said that each scout group in various counties do things differently.

Hope that was helpful, personally I think it was a load of babble. The clipper is an excellent knife. And I'd rather my son have one of those than a SAK... I can see why some scout leaders would be shocked by it. Especially if they are used to using SAK. I don't think the leader was in the wrong per say. I'd be quite thankful that it obviously shows they are passionate and do care about the youngsters they are involved with. But at the same time, she probably has no experience with knives and instantly thinks a large knife is dangerous.

I think if he still managed to get some carving done, even if it was with a SAK, there's nothing to get annoyed about. He'll have no doubt enjoyed it just as much.

With my job as a keeper I get lots of 15/16 year olds coming to me for work experience in their last year at school. Especially in the area where I live. Jobs in the outdoors are still sort after. Sometimes though I take teenagers on who come from areas like, Leeds/York and you can instantly tell. Their understanding of the countryside is minimal and their understanding of the tools needed is far worse.

Personally I never give any of them a fixed blade knife until at least the 3rd or 4th day. They get a wooden knife in a sheath which they wear on their belt. This get's them used to the feel of carrying the knife on their belt. When they eventually get a fixed blade knife. They are told;
"As soon as the knife has been used and you're finished with it. It goes back in the sheath, we don't play around with these things.They aren't cool, hip or groovy, they're nothing more than a tool, remember that."

A lot of them take the lesson and as soon as they're finished, the knife is put straight back into the sheath. The ones that don't have it confiscated. And they don't get a second chance with me.

Try having a word with the leader you're talking about. Not in a negative way. That'll only create problems for you son. I'm sure you can both learn something from it.

LJ

 

[spandit]

Without a SAK, how are you going to get stones out of boy scout's hooves (such is my understanding)?

 

[JohnC]

I was asked to help at a camp re. knives and we had a fair assortment of pretty blunted folders and kitchen knives that had come from the kids.
I suggested moras as a troop buy, initially this was rejected as they were "too pointed", and the round ended opinals were bought, after their first outing, the troop bought some moras and there are occasional knife skills sessions organised.
A lot of the time it is the approach to the leaders. I had attended doing a fire lighting demo, and used a fixed blade knife and did have a lot of "thats illegal" "thats a weapon" comments, but a good discussion and dmeonstration of knife safety, usage and "ethos" helped a lot...
The troop is hoping to do more knife and axe work and I'm doing a sharpening and general care session for that (so need to get practicing myself)...

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Okay,

Most scout groups carry with them a supply of SAK which is deemed more suitable than a larger fixed blade knife. The aim is to educate the youngsters in knife crime first, in the hope that the message filters from them into the wider community. They are given a presentation on knife crime also. The SAK is a small knife which can be folded and put away. A larger fixed blade knife can be dangerous when left exposed and in a group of youngsters the possibility of that happening is very real.
He also mentioned the knock on process of carrying a large knife has... If one scout see's a large knife, he's going to go home and ask for one from his parents. With peer pressure and the situation with knife crime in the UK, we(the scout organisation) have to be very careful. Any blade that is deemed "cheap & unsuitable", "too large", "too menacing" or "too dangerous" will be confiscated by the scout leader. a SAK is discrete, portable and whilst still dangerous, is less dangerous than larger fixed blade knives.

He also told me to pass on that the scout leader has to first decide if the scout in question has sufficient knowledge in the use of knives. If he hasn't then he'll be given a tried and tested knife that the scouts use. (SAK I imagine) and supervised through out.

LJ

...which although partially correct, is his personal opinion (and likely the way in which the groups he is familiar with go about doing things), but he doesn't speak for the Scout Assn.

The rules which the Assn. operate to are called the POR (Policy, Organisation and Rules), and this is generally silent on the subject of knives. However, there is guidance on their website here:

https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515

The key part is "If you consider a knife as a tool, then you should use the appropriate tool for the job.". If a Leader determines through their experience that a Clipper or similar is a better tool for the job than a SAK, then that will be used. Luckily, many leaders these days are realising that a good quality sheath knife that isn't OTT will in many cases be the more effective tool. SAKs are a bit of a hangover from bygone years where they were seen as the archetypal outdoor tool, and my experience is that their use by youth organisations is beginning to dwindle.

 

[Lumber Jack]

...which although partially correct, is his personal opinion (and likely the way in which the groups he is familiar with go about doing things), but he doesn't speak for the Scout Assn.

I did say that it was the personal way of that group... Thinking a bit more about it and remembering my very brief stint with the scouts several millennia a go. We didn't use knives that much. And when we did, we never needed a large one. I don't know, this is a VERY difficult subject. Knives and youngsters conjure up so many images. I suppose the scouts have to cover themselves as well as they'd be liable for any injuries ect. Some leaders will no doubt be over cautious. But when it comes to the safety of our children, I think that's fantastic.

PS, I enjoyed the Link. Well worth a read.

LJ.

 

[The Lord Poncho]

You are quite correct, sorry if my post came over as overly agressive. I do agree as well that leaders should be cautious- but it's a fine line.

Being overly cautious denies young people the opportunity to gets their hands on knives and use them as tools. If they are permenently locked away, and small swiss army knives remain the sole exposure that the average Scout gets to a knife, then other types of knife could take on mystical properties. I can remember my own childhood sufficiently well to know that when this happens, wild horses wouldn't have prevented me getting hold of something that I desperately wanted- and then the only training the majority of our countries youth will have received on their shiny new sheath knife will have been gleaned from the cinema!

You are also right about the insurance liability thing- any injury in Scouting these days subjects the Leader (and witnesses) to completing an enormous form from Scout Insurance Services!

 

[Manacles]

You are also right about the insurance liability thing- any injury in Scouting these days subjects the Leader (and witnesses) to completing an enormous form from Scout Insurance Services!

Too true, I've got one here - seventeen pages it is...................

 

[Lumber Jack]

You are quite correct, sorry if my post came over as overly agressive. I do agree as well that leaders should be cautious- but it's a fine line.

Being overly cautious denies young people the opportunity to gets their hands on knives and use them as tools. If they are permenently locked away, and small swiss army knives remain the sole exposure that the average Scout gets to a knife, then other types of knife could take on mystical properties. I can remember my own childhood sufficiently well to know that when this happens, wild horses wouldn't have prevented me getting hold of something that I desperately wanted- and then the only training the majority of our countries youth will have received on their shiny new sheath knife will have been gleaned from the cinema!

You are also right about the insurance liability thing- any injury in Scouting these days subjects the Leader (and witnesses) to completing an enormous form from Scout Insurance Services!

It didn't come across aggressively at all, bud. I just realised how tricky of a subject this is. I can completely understand both points of view.

Take care, mate.

LJ.

 

[maddave]

I think too often youngsters are taught about knife crime before knife safety. When I was a young scout we would get awarded a sheath knife for doing our woodcraft badge. Back then knife crime didn't exist so we always saw a knife as a tool. Now with media and police hype and paranoia, children are too often TAUGHT that a knife is primarily a weapon before they are taught it is probably one of the most important tools since the invention of the wheel..... Sad times.

As for suitability I feel a clipper is way safer than any folder when children are learning.

 

[John Fenna]

When I was a leader some of the Scouts made their own knives, some were awarded knives as prizes and some bought knives off me - one ex Scout is a policeman who still uses the one he bought off me!
There was no thought of "knife crime" but they all knew that if I saw them using their knife in a dangerous way or threatening anyone with a knife the knife would be confiscated, the blade ground into two pieces and returned in that condition.
I never had to destroy a single knife.
What did scare me was parents sending Cubs on camp, when woggle carving was on the program, with SAKs that had been deliberately blunted to avoid the brat cutting themselves!

 

[Rebel]

My son took a knife proficiency test with his Scout leader and after that he was allowed to use whatever knife I lent him.

In this modern day and age his troop are low key about knife usage but the rules seem to be that at camps it's fine to have a sensible folder or fixed blade.

One time we were waiting at the hut for them to come back from a camp and because they were a bit late we were joking that the police might have stopped them and found a minibus full of teenage kids with knives and axes and arrested them all. I wasn't sure it was funny.