Wood Choice & Finishing Oils for food utensils

[Pumpy]

Hi All,

My first post, so bear with me, I can waffle on a bit

I carved my first spoon! I had thought my log pile huge, enough for the coldest of winters....
then I looked at it again with a spoon carving eye, choice of two logs then

First one ended up as a cross between a serving spoon and a ladel, bit too curved, if I can find a matching curved log,
I reckon I can make a matching spork for an impressive salad tossing pair,
the log does determine the finished article eh.

Second one is much better, though the curve of the log was a little twisted, I managed to turn it to my advantage so the
handle curves down, this one will lay down flat, and still keep it's contents, a little knot found it's way right
into the middle of the thinnest part of the handle, just above the bowl, I thought it would make the handle too weak,
but managed to leave enough wood around it for strength, that the knot now looks like I intended it to be there,
as the 'bulge' makes quite an attractive feature

I used Hawthorn, the remains of the hedge I layed last winter. Each log had a lovely dark centre, seems the centre had died back a few seasons ago, leaving dead wood.

Questions...

The dead, dark, wood looks as though something stained it, bacteria or fungus maybe worked it's way down from the withered twigy branch which would've grown out the bottom of my spoons bowl had it not died.
Does this make the spoon useless? will it still be ok to use once oiled, or be too pourus?

Natural Oils. Danish oil, linseed, teak, walnut, hazel, or vegitable oils? the list seems endless
is there somewhere to learn about them all, which is the best choice for spoons/bowls/plates ?
are there pro's and cons to each finishing oil?

Looking for my next carving project, I'm thinking of a nice handle for a walking staff, crooked like a shepherds crook,
but maybe not as extreme a bend. Since I have little knowledge about steeming bends in wood, I think I'll have to carve the 'crook' bit seperately, then attatch it to the staff, so I'm now looking for a method. If I leave a fairly
deep tongue (about 3") on the crook, I think I can fit this into a slot in the top of the staff, given some pretty strong (waterproof) glue. So, what glue to use? I don't fancy any epoxy or non natural glue, I'm trying to stick (hehe) to
natural resources I have used a product based on fish (cascamite), a powdered glue you mix with water.
I last used it to glue in newl posts on a new starcase, the glue bond was stronger than the wood (pine I think) as it was impossible to break the bond on a test piece, the wood fractured first and I had to take a chisel to it to get
near the bond

Is Cascamite a 'natural' product? Since it's made from bits of fish I imagine there must be a "bushcraft" type fish glue,
is there a recipie? or an alternative? and is it waterproof?

Pine resin mixed with charcoal? I know it can be used to fix arrowheads etc. but what's it like wood to wood?

Choice of woods: Is there a resource listing types of wood and their best practical application?
I know fruit woods, black thorn & hawthorn are good to use for food utensils,
but what about willow (I have 6 salix species on my land and no interest in cricket! ) and sycamore, what are their best uses? I have used some pollarded willow for bean poles, split off the bark and used it for lashings, great stuff. I seem to remember Sycamore is good for fence poles as it
is resistant to rotting, which puts me off using it for food utensils incase it's resistant to rotting because it maybe has toxins in

Any help, (or book recomendations) will be much appriciated

Cheers Pumpy.

 

[Pumpy]

Hope the pic is big enough - is the dark wood going to be an issue? Which finishing oil is recomended so as not to leave an after taste?

Pumpy

 

[AJB]

Hi Pumpy (great name!),

Like the spoons, I’m waiting the arrival of my first crook and carving knives (hopefully this weekend) so I can start. Any tips for an absolute novice?

 

[george]

Nice looking spoons Pumpy, welcome to BCUK.

In your first post you asked a number of questions and I was suprised that no-one had answered - we're usually incredibly helpful here.

Then I had a look at your post again and found it difficult to work out exactly what it was that you were asking.

If you break down your first post into some shorter questions I'll bet we can come up with a few answers.

To try and answer your second post:

The staining on the wood is called Spalting and shouldn't cause any problem at all - in fact well figured spalted wood is highly sought after for wood turning. It looks good when it's stained and polished.

For eating spoons I tend to use just ground nut oil - it doesnt have the same tendancy to go sour as olive oil does and as long as you don't have any peanut allergy or cook with it for anyone else who has a peanut allergy it will do just fine.

George

 

[Pumpy]

Hi Andy, thanks for bulling up my first spoons

I'm quite the carving novice, I read RM's book, 'Bushcraft' for advice on cordage from willow bark (I have alot of willow), it also has a great set of drawings to blank out a spoon, and a basic guide to cutting techniques, I was so impressed by it's apparent simplicity, I ordered my knives straigt away. It is well worth aquainting yourself with basic cutting techniques (especially the 'chest leaver grip'), always be aware where the blade could go if it slipped, and make sure yer fingers (or other bodily parts) are not in that place ....before you start cutting I found myself doing a 'dummy' cut first, running the blade along without any pressure, just to make sure it was a safe cut. I found it only to easy to change position as I got so absorbed, and leave my thumb exposed, (I seem to wrap my thumb around/alogside the blade by default, this is very bad technique, and much better if you can get used to a fist grip with your thumb around the handle) I have some minor battle scars from the first spoon, I was much more aware on the second. I also found that when you initially split the 'spoon' log, it seemed better to leave more than 50% on the spoon side, you might have to whittle more wood off, but it leaves much more room for error. I probably did alot more sanding than I imagine most experianced carvers do too, again this was to leave more room for error
hope that helps! good luck!

Thanks for the warm welcome George,

Spalting! excellent I thought my spoon might end up the proverbial dust collector I was a little confused with the miriad of oils to choose, everyone seems to use something different, thanks for the advice.

Questions without the waffle, OK less waffle

What is a good waterproof, natural, glue/method for ataching a staff/stave head? - I can only find examples where they insert a threaded rod between staff and head, I can't imagine this is 'traditional' and wonder how they did it before the industrial age.

Is there a bushcraft recipe for glue made from fish bits?

Which woods should I avoid using for food utensils?

Can I use Sycamore (80% of my log pile) for food stuffs?

Cheers, Pumpy.

 

[AJB]

Thanks Pumpy

 

[raskusdrotti]

Great post Pumpy!!

Although i do have to say i think you bought those spoons!!

If you've seen my first attempts you would understand

I'm going back home later and i'm gonna try some more now i've read this...

Neil

 

[george]

Pumpy

Try www.dick.biz for natural glues

For stick making techniques I found this book to be pretty good http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/sporting_goods/1-86108-083-2/ the url is for an american company but I imagine you could get it from amazon too. It shows various methods of attaching shafts/handles.

Fish glue - www.dick.biz as well though you can make it by boiling and boiling and boiling fish skins. Stinks though.

Not sure what woods you need to avoid - very few woods are so toxic that just eating from a dried and sealed one would kill you - possibly avoid yew, laburnum etc or anything that you know has poisonous fruits or leaves.

Sycamore is absolutely fine for eating utensils - in fact I have some salad servers that I just finished recently. Only problem is it's not particularly durable and will mark easily.

My favourites are beech, apple and oak - though of all of them oak seems the most problematic to dry without splitting. Try drying it very slowly in a bed of shavings.

Hope this helps

George

 

[Pumpy]

cheers raskusdrotti, I still have the matching off cuts from the original split log if there's any doubt glad I managed to inspire you to try again, can't wait to see the fruits of it

George, what a star mate, well beyond the call of duty, I've added dick.biz to my favorites, I'll be browsing that site for a while me thinks. Great book recomendation too, it's on amazon for £8.89, it'd be rude not to order it, so I did

I did some reserch on the fish glue. Seems 'cascamite TM' is not a fish based product afterall, a very strong polimer powder you mix with water, and ends up waterproof, I'll be using that until I've had time to make and evaluate some home made stinky stuff, I did find a recipie with some useful insight which I'll post incase anyone finds this thread from a search, and still wants to stink up their kitchen.....

Fish, or animal hide glue - Recipie from http://www.florilegium.org/files/CRAFTS/glues-msg.html
=================================================
Subject: Re: ANST - Period Glue-fish glue with recipie
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 20:07:12 MST
From: nib <nib at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Another type of mediveal glue is fish glue-and this stuff is STRONG.
Good for wood/horn combinations. This is a cold glue, meaning that it
is used cold. Not heated, like hide glues. And by the way, why didn't
anyone mention that Hide Glue can be bought in a hardware store? It's
called Rabbitskin Glue-comes in granules, reconsituted with water and
must be heated to be used. Much easier than breaking down the bones,
horns, hooves and hides and creating the glue...that takes even longer
than fish glue!
Been there, done that, don't do it anymore.

To make Fish Glue:

Remove the good meat parts of the fish then take the bones and remains
of your fish or several fish and place in a pot, cover with enough water
to be about 3" above the remains. Bring to a rolling boil, then turn
down to a rolling simmer (just below medium heat on a stove).
Cook for approximately 2-3 or MORE hours on a rolling simmer-to dissolve
all the parts of the fish-and adding JUST enough extra water as needed
to prevent from burning & sticking-stir frequently! (about every 10-15
minutes.)
The glue will be very very thick and gooey when done. It will seem
liquid, but put a sample between your fingers and thumb and press them
together open and shut constantly...at some point, that excerise will
cease and you'll run around screaming "how do i get my fingers and thumb
apart!!"
Can be kept in a tightly closed container for about 10 days under a
cool enviorment (read refidgerator)....open downwind after 10 days.
Yeah, the longer it's kept around the stronger it gets...in glue
strength and smell. Don't keep it longer than 3 months.

Oddly enough, when cooking, the creation of this glue stinks a bit for
about 10-15 minutes...then creates this WONDERFUL cooking smell that
makes folks who like fish, very very hungry. Feed them the fillets you
took off those bones, and tell them to leave your glue alone.

Rayah Blackstar

http://www.recipeland.com/encyclopaedia/index.php/Glue

Historically, glue only refers to protein colloids prepared from animal tissues, such as hide glue, bone glue, or fish glue. The meaning has been extended to any type of glue-like substances that are used to attach one material to another.

Nearly 4,000 years ago, the Egyptians were using hide glue for their furniture adhesive. This is proven by hairs found in Pharaoh's tombs and by stone carvings depicting the process of gluing different woods. Evidence exists that the Sumerians also used glue before the Egyptians did.

=========================================================

Since my order from axminster tools just arrived, waterstones, carpenters axe, and a copy of "Elements of woodcarving" by Chris Pye, I'm well prepared for the next project.... wonders wether this much excitement has been felt since my teenage years....

Thanks again for all your help mate your insight into wood types is pricless, I can see there's no substitute for experiance, my learning curve gets steeper and the log pile smaller the more I look at it

Pumpy.

 

[alick]

Hi Pumpy - nice work - the spoons look brilliant.

Let me point you to the search tool, I know there has been at least one substantial thread that discussed woods and oils for eating utensils. Most veg/nut oils will do, danish and teak oils are often recommended, paraffin oil (a clear odorless petroleum based oil is actually sold at ikea stores for wooden utensils and is used as a finish for scandinavian Kuksa (wooden drinking cups).

Spalting results from a type of fungal attack in the wood. Very pretty. I don't know if it has any health implications but does generally imply a weakness / porosity in the wood. It wouldn't put me off, but I'd seal it well with oil.

Cascamite is a casein based glue (casein is derived from or connected with milk - I forget how). Once dry it is nominally waterproof, but not good enough to withstand constant immersion. It's been around many years so there are less natural but better epoxy glues available these days that are properly waterproof. PS - cascamite goes off, so that tub that's been sitting unused on the workshop shelf for 10 years isn't going to be as strong as when it was new.

Cheers.

 

[JohnC]

Nice spoons
I've had a go at this and got a couple of nice sycamore spoons that my boys use for porridge, I used olive oil at the time, but I think it'll go off eventually, hopefully the wood will toughen up as they get used (tho I may be kidding myself on that)
I'll need to get abck to doing some more after reading your post (previous cuts from my crook knife having healed)

 

[leon-1]

You can try tung oil as well for sealing wood. It has been recommended on here before and says on the tin safe for use on bowls, utensils and food preparation surfaces (chopping boards) and from what I know of it has no after taste .

 

[jem seeley]

Or...you could try Organoil Wood Wipe from Axminster Power Tools. Its a blend of citrus & nut oils and is especially made for treenware & chopping boards. It smells wonderful when you're applying it but it doesn't leave a taste & its not too thick so is absorbed readily unlike olive oil & some vegetable oils. It comes in 250ml bottles, is used very sparingly & costs about £4.
The best thing to do when you have finished making your spoon is to douse it in hot water & put it aside to dry. This raises the grain again but after repeating the final stages of sanding you should have a spoon that stays smoother after cooking, eating & washing. You can repeat this operation a few times but after a while I find my spoons stay smooth & just need a wipe with the oil from time to time. In fact the first ever spoon I made is still my regular & has developed its own patina just like a good antique!!

 

[Squidders]

My new method of oiling wooden bits I have been making is to wait until Eloise is doing some chips and sneakily drop what I'm working on in with the chips.

I don't know if it's because the oil is hot or not bu it seems to really penetrate and works well. I also like standard sunflour oil because it's got no real taste and doesn't contain any nuts.

I just drop it in and after 2 minutes I fish it out and rub it down a little with some wet and dry paper then dry it off and rinse it.

It's worth a try because for most, it involves spending no money.

 

[jem seeley]

.....other than the cost to the NHS due to health issues later 'cos of all the deep fried food obviously!!! Mmmm, battered spoon!
I've some friends that also use this principal although not at such a high temperature as in a deep fat fryer. They just heat the oil gently in a pan then submerge their bowls, spoons, etc. briefly and then wipe off any excess and leave to dry.

 

[Bumblebee]

I'll recommend raw linseed oil, smells very nice, penetrates well into the wood and is actually good for you

In Sweden almost all locally made wooden objects is oiled with linseed oil. I recently oiled my homemade ash canoe paddle with it as well.

Tung oil (pressed from an asian nut species) is also very good but much more expensive, but the price difference is much less here in the UK. Try both and test what works best for you!

Danish oil is Tung oil mixed with other unnamed ingrediences and is nothing I would treat anything with that will come into contact with food.