woodlore courses less popular?

[coln18]

Yes exactly the same,where I am we have a lot of common land but it is still owned by someone and you can be moved on if they find you.There is quite a bit of open access land but there are signs that say no camping.Our version of open access is a bit different to yours.

Thats a real shame mate, it is kind of fun when someone up here puts a no trespassing sign up, we usually use it to tie our tarps too. But even up here they are starting to pass local by laws to stop the young drunk element from ruining the area, slippery slope if you ask me, but a bit off subject.

 

[sandbender]

"...I've heard a few folk who have grumbled about recent courses with Woodlore, some of the instructors attitudes are up their own 4rse and there's a general we are mightier than thou vibe about the courses..."

They do get through their instructors don't they?

The chap who was their top instructor when I took the fundamental many many years ago definitely got on my bad side, if it hadn't been for the course assistants, who I thought did a great job, that would have been my last course with Woodlore.

Many courses and at least four different top instructors later and I have no complaints.

However I now know none of the staff who are working there today.

 

[tobes01]

Got to say I enjoyed my Woodlore courses, BUT since then I've tried Survival School, and suddenly there's a new element to the training: a sense of humour! Some of the Woodlore guys (not all) really take themselves waaaay too seriously. At last year's Woodsense I became quite angry at how patronising a couple of the instructors were. I'm a grown man, not a schoolkid, and I'm paying to be there. If I want to deal with smug b*stards then I'll just go to work

As a result I cancelled the booking for the Camp Craft course and I'm off to use Survival School instead. Maybe Woodlore need to remind their instructors about who's paying the bills?

 

[robin wood]

I am surprised to hear the number of folk canceling courses, do you get your deposit back if you just change your mind?

 

[Mesquite]

I am surprised to hear the number of folk canceling courses, do you get your deposit back if you just change your mind?

Nope... from Woodlore's T&C

4. Cancellation by client(s) on both UK and Overseas Courses
If the booking is cancelled by the client(s) (for any reason) the following cancellation charge will arise:

- Cancellation more than 9 weeks before course: 100% of deposit payable, but any final payment made will be refunded.

- Cancellation less than 9 weeks before the course: 100% of fee payable i.e. no refund.

The client acknowledges that it is reasonable for such penalties to arise, given the need for Woodlore to make preparations for a course substantially in advance of the course

You are allowed to transfer to another course/date for a £25 handling fee provided there's a space available.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Having done courses with Woodlore, Woodsmoke and Forest Knights i personally wouldnt hesitate to book again with any of them, prices seem similar aprt from woodlore has more self catered courses ie campcraft, however i did get more socialising from the instructors at Woodsmoke than Woodlore,
dont get me wrong the instructors at Woodlore all chatted but seemed to keep to themselves in the evenings whilst at Woodsmoke the instructors spent a good time chatting with us in the evening, not a big deal as we socialised amongst ourselves at Woodlore but just having time to shoot the breeze was nice.
i suspect as some say the bushcraft bubble has burst somewhat and as a result its a bit tougher for Woodlore to fill all its spaces add to that there increasing number of schools around without Ray's name to add to cost (it happens a bit i am sure) then folk will vote with their wallets and go elsewhere.

 

[Debby]

Having done 3 courses at Woodlore so far, I don't think the courses are too expensive, either. As has been commented upon already, it's definitely the so called recession putting pressure on peoples spending (or lack of it, at the mo.)

Btw, I also remember speaking to some of the staff, who said that they spend their evenings preparing for the next days practical sessions, so this is probably why they don't socialise much.

I have also heard that the less pleasant (for want of a better word) staff are no longer with the company. I have known about Woodlore since around 2002 / 2003 and I believe they've had a high turn over of staff through out.

If you have any doubts about quality of teaching, read through the list of instructors and read the relevent section on the Woodlore blog. You will see that many have been there for quite a few years, and the first two listed (it says) have been awarded their fundamental instructor knives. Isn't this the same level as Ben McNutt who now runs Woodsmoke?

Current members of the Woodlore team I have been taught by include: Dan, Adrian, Ben, Scott, James, and Sarah. All were knowledgable, patient, generous spirited and hard working people. All (except Sarah) seemed to be well organised.

If you have concerns about the Journeyman particularly, can I just say that I believe both James Bath and Dan Hume have been assisting on this course for at least the last 3 or 4 years - so there shouldn't be any problems through lack of experience. I've toyed with the idea of doing this course myself.

Importantly, if you have any specific concerns, phoning Woodlore for advice is essential and should allay any concerns you may have. I have always found the office staff exceptionally helpful, when I have spoken to them.

I hope this information helps.

 

[tomongoose]

I think partly its the economy but also there are a lot more providers out there now and with the internet its a lot easier to find them

 

[Xunil]

I think a lot of folks are still spending significant amounts on different aspects of what we loosely term 'bushcraft'.

And a lot of other folks have had to reduce their spending massively as disposable income becomes more challenging to find these days.

For example, more and more folks are getting 'into the primitive' and interest in paleo hunter gatherers and their methods is steadily gaining in popularity, which kind of flies right in the face of your ventile/firesteel crowd, since the paleo folks go down the hand/bow drill or fire plough route and don't so much treat a firesteel with disdain - it more or less has little or no place in their particular slant on bushcraft.

That's not a dig at ventile, firesteels or those who own them (me for one, although the firesteel I carry has never actually been used) but I think the market that once struggled to keep pace with demand has now exceeded it slightly, especially given the current financial climate.

I can't comment on whether or not the Woodlore courses are worth the money, never having been on one, but I would say that if the paleo approach is what blows your skirt up then a Woodlore course would hold little appeal while other courses run by non-Woodlore yet still highly skilled people might be far more relevant.

Put it like this - from speaking with a lot of folks who practice bushcraft or make a living from it, most of them have the utmost respect for Ray Mears and what he has achieved but they wouldn't necessarily choose one of his school's courses over any other just because of his association with it.

There are also only so many people who want to go on any given course offered by any particular school - sooner or later you need to diversify the course structure or find an alternative way of reaching a greater audience somehow.

The same thing happened in the 80's and 90's - survival schools were popping up left right and centre, and then started disappearing as the market became more challenging.

Some of this is simply a numbers game, both in terms of cost and in terms of students wanting that kind of course.

Just my thoughts, largely based on educated ?!?! guesswork and absolutely no hard evidence

 

[crazydave]

the dirge of part timers running their own spoon carving and nettle string courses cant help, lofty benefitted from some tv exposure but had the same problem back in the 80s with every ex marine and para buying a landrover setting up a weekend survival school. this time you get 'graduates' of this or that buying SUVs and setting up as schools. at least the ex forces generally knew their subject base and how to teach though having been instructors beforehand. the current crop I've spoken too seem lack a lot of base knowledge and um and ar a lot because they lack the flow you get from experience.

nothing against part timers if they are any good as it is still said that to enjoy it more your chosen career should be your hobby not your main job.

in the current climate though the ray mears premium is taking probably its toll and i often wonder what would have happened if he hadnt managed to make that big break and become a media celebrity instead of the wilderness expert he was first billed as. they would probably get a better take up if they knocked 150 quid off and put a disclaimer that ray mears will not be there so folks wouldnt be disappointed. I've known a few who have either gone or sent their kids off all hyper on a course they couldnt really afford but 'ray mears will be there', or so they thought.

anyone who can book up in advance is lucky at the moment and I do wonder how long all the knife makers and leatherworkers can go on trying to be a business. I was at a craft fair two weeks ago as her mum makes and sells jams and preserves, it seemed like every other stall was a woodcarver flogging his wares and you could see the happier ones were the ones without named polo shirts, business cards and fancy artwork advertising woodcarving courses.

 

[Xunil]

crazydave:

Interesting observations.

I had a similar discussion recently with a couple of knife maker friends I've known for years.

On the one hand everyone wants a bargain, and on the other a full-time maker with a living to earn now has a real fight against the rising tide of hobby makers who are cranking knives out at a fraction of the cost.

Knifemaking is bloody hard work and if folks knew just how hard they might think twice before questioning some makers prices.

The situation is an odd one though, in that there are now so many low price-point knives to choose from and some of them are really good.

Overall though, the general standard appears to have dropped, based largely on the rationale of "it's a user - the grind marks will come out the first time it is sharpened".

To me that translates as "the customer will finish the grinding/finish for me when he or she sharpens it" which I find astonishing.

All makers start somewhere so this is no dig at the hobby crowd, but the entire expectation of client and maker seems to have shifted very dramatically over the years here in the UK, but the same attitudes are not so prevalent elsewhere I've noticed.

That probably just goes to show something...

I'll get my coat (again)

 

[Debby]

I forgot to mention the other day, that during all 3 courses I've attended at Woodlore, Ray M was there to see me and the other clients, 3 years in a row. My first course "Tracking" Ray spent about an hour or so teaching us about deer, sign etc. Also, whilst I was on the Fundamental course the next year, Ray showed up with Lars Falt (on my birthday, no less) to see us all! Then last year, on the WEM ( exped medic) course he demonstrated for us the damage that rifles can do, which helped us understand what we may face if someone gets shot in (rural) USA (Yanks n guns n all that), Bolivia etc. One of the course attendees was learning exped 1st aid for travelling to Chile or Bolivia!

I hope this helps satisfy the concerns of all those who have doubts about Rays attendance on courses.

It may also help to phone the company the week before you go on a course to see if he will be there!

 

[sandbender]

"...I forgot to mention the other day..."

Just to clarify, your not employed by or involved with Woodlore in any capacity are you?

Of the six courses I have attended, Ray turned up or was involved in running four of them.

 

[Mesquite]

I forgot to mention the other day, that during all 3 courses I've attended at Woodlore, Ray M was there to see me and the other clients, 3 years in a row.

<snip>

I hope this helps satisfy the concerns of all those who have doubts about Rays attendance on courses.

You were lucky then... Of the 4 courses I attended with Woodlore Ray attended just one which was the Journeyman. Ray doesn't attend all the courses as he's a busy guy and he's also taken a step back from teaching (his words)

 

[Debby]

Hi Sandbender, No I'm not employed by Woodlore. I'd be upfront about that kind of info.

Am actually involved in a small business. We have had a high turn over of staff for years. I don't think many people chose a job for life much any more. Our last manager left approx 18 months ago, and it's impossible to replace him with someone with the right kind of experience.

I have to add Woodlore is the nearest non military style bushcraft provider I know about. I can't travel up to Woodsmokes course site, as I'd have to travel up a few days before, and come back a few days later, (as I have physical limitations,) and can't really aford that kind of time away!

Any suggestions for good bushcraft providers in my area would be helpful, thanks.

 

[MartiniDave]

Debby,

I've always had nothing but exceptional service from Woodlore, well beyond what I would have expected.

Dave

 

[sandbender]

"...Hi Sandbender, No I'm not employed by Woodlore. I'd be upfront about that kind of info..."

Hi Debby, good stuff.

"...I can't travel up to Woodsmokes course site..."

I wasn't allowed to attend the Woodsmoke course I wanted because I couldn't prove to their satisfaction that I was fit enough.

 

[sandbender]

"...I wasn't allowed to attend the Woodsmoke course I wanted because I couldn't prove to their satisfaction that I was fit enough..."

My previous post on this thread was intended to be a light hearted response to Debbys not wanting too travel too far for a course, suggesting that a Woodsmoke course was something that folks should really try to get on. However reading it through tonight I can see that it looks like a dig at Woodsmoke, which was not my intention.

I have never attended a Woodsmoke course but I know someone who has attended several, he speaks very highly of his time with them and the photographs would suggest that Woodsmoke attendees have a brilliant time.

Sorry to all at Woodsmoke.