Knife Law (Rant)

[HillBill]

So then why should there be a presumption that I am intending evil if my knife is 1mm too long, or has a safety-catch? I thought that there was a presumption of "innocent-until-proven-guilty" in English law. I am just as unlikely to go a-viking with a two-foot machete as I am with a SAK.

There is no presumption mate. Only the fact that you overstepped the law with that 1mm. You would be guilty of breaking the sub 3" law. But first it needs to be proven you have no good reason to have it.

You see, if you have a job to do that needs more than a 3" non locker and you take a fixed blade, then you already have good reason to carry it ( providing that job is not illegal ) But you will never need more than a 3"non locker unless you have a reason to need it.

 

[Matt.S]

There isn't in law. You can carry a two foot machete as long as you have a good reason. If you don't have good reason, then you really should not be carrying it. The only definition that should be changed is that on lock knives, and the realisation that a lock is a safety device and not anything more. But then you can carry a lock knife perfectly legally if you have a good reason to do so... camping, hiking, work etc etc.

Yes I know the law as it stands, I'm talking about morality vs. legality. Are you saying you think that I should not be allowed to carry a belt knife if I want to, without having to justify my actions to anyone? I believe emphatically in the Lockean harm principle. My carrying of a Mora does not harm other people, my stabbing someone else with a Mora does.

 

[HillBill]

Another thing to point out is this.

Lock knives and fixed blades have the extra restriction, not because of size or blade shape etc, but for one simple reason.

The tip is supported on both of the above, meaning that it can "pierce" much better than a non locker. A non locker can cut as well as a locker, the edge isnt what the restriction is on. It is on the tip of the knife and its ability to stab.

 

[HillBill]

Yes I know the law as it stands, I'm talking about morality vs. legality. Are you saying you think that I should not be allowed to carry a belt knife if I want to, without having to justify my actions to anyone? I believe emphatically in the Lockean harm principle. My carrying of a Mora does not harm other people, my stabbing someone else with a Mora does.

Have you ever had to justify your actions to anyone mate? I haven't as of yet and i use knives quite a bit in various locations. The law is there yes. But unless you are being an idiot with a knife or hang around on street corners with one, then you are not likely to encouter it or have to justify it, at all.


Has anyone reading this ever had a problem when out using your knife? Just curious as there loads of talk about this law, that law, perception etc

But how many have actually run into that law or perception doing your own thing?

 

[PREPER]

Has anyone ever been arrested on this forum for carrying a knife or axe?
I bet no one or only a few. Enough said!
Lets carry on enjoying out 'hobby' and not let the bast..ds grind us down!

PREPER...........

 

[JonathanD]

Yes I know the law as it stands, I'm talking about morality vs. legality. Are you saying you think that I should not be allowed to carry a belt knife if I want to, without having to justify my actions to anyone? I believe emphatically in the Lockean harm principle. My carrying of a Mora does not harm other people, my stabbing someone else with a Mora does.

If you are carrying that Mora in a pub or shopping mall, then no, you should not. If you are carrying it in the country or woods, then you have a good reason to be carrying it. The law is very simple and protects the innocent. The Spyderco UKPK has gone a long way to making up for lack of locking mechanism in day to day carry, it is the only knife I need as EDC. I have carried the Leatherman wave also for nearly 10 years now with no problem whatsoever.

 

[hollowdweller]

how are gun and knife crimes over there? i bet they are significantly lower than england because most people are carrying something they can use as a weapon if they need to making it more difficult for Mr delinquent with his kitchen knife to be a threat to Mr public with his gun.

No way they are way higher than England because we have so many weapons of various sorts floating around and easy access.:BlueTeamE

However despite the problems a politician proposing any sort of limitations on the ownership of weapons in the US is pretty much committing political suicide.

In a few urbanized areas weapons laws have some public support but nationally the polling is on the side of even looser gun and knife laws.

Earlier in the year US Customs proposed a rule change that would have affected assisted opening knives and there was such a public outcry that they withdrew it.

http://www.blademag.com/article/customs-withdraws-knife-proposal

 

[locum76]

One of the young lads who I have working at the farm today turned up with a second world war version of one of these to use as his EDC on the farm:

To me, although it's useful for him to have at work, it looks like a weapon. Despite the lad being very pleasant and conscientious he undoubtedly looks like a 'chav' and I have no doubt the police would have field day with him if he was caught with it.

What would all your advices be? I'm thinking of suggesting that he leaves it at the farm but the knife is his (via his grandad) and he may want to use it elsewhere.

EDIT: the piccy of the knife didn't seem to work. For info it is a WWII british army jacknife with a stonking great marlin spike on it.

 

[Urban_Dreamer]

What would all your advices be? I'm thinking of suggesting that he leaves it at the farm but the knife is his (via his grandad) and he may want to use it elsewhere.

If it were me I'd strongly suggest that he use a knife with less sentimental value at the farm and leave it there overnight. I can't locate the thread, but I recall someone here being asked to surrender his knife to the police. NOTE he didn't have it seized, he surrendered it. The point being that as it was not evidence they had a right to destroy it since he signed it over to them.

He had some justification for believing that, while he had done nothing wrong in this instance, things would not go well for him if he refused.

The lad that you mention may also have reason to feel that the same might be true in his own case. Is it worth loosing his grandad's knife because of a cop with attitude?

 

[durulz]

If it were me I'd strongly suggest that he use a knife with less sentimental value at the farm

Yeah, that's the kind of approach I would take - make him value it in a different way.
You could suggest it's not the most appropriate knife/blade for the job as well.
Since the thing does have sentimental value for him I would also suggest he take it home and keep it there. I'd tell him to be careful though, since if the Police found him with it he could be in trouble. Therefore, I'd suggest he wrap it up properly and place it in the bottom of his bag, out of the way. He got it to you without trouble so doubtless he'll get it home as well.
Then suggest he get a cheaper knife (via you?) which he can keep on the farm for work.

 

[Itzal]

I read threads on the law surrounding knives/bladed articles with interest, and I can honestly say that this forum tends to have a generally responsible attitude towards such things, however, I think its worth bearing in mind that not all Police have a 'bad attitude' towards 'responsible' people carrying knives etc. Unfortunately in a country where everyone is scared of knives (or weapons on the whole) the individual Policeman is having his/her discretion slowly taken away from them and most will not put their own neck on the line by allowing a member of the public to continue on with such an item.

If your carrying an item such as the the lad with his granddads knife, (I would suggest he leaves it at home) he should wrap it up and makes sure it is far from easily accessible on his journey, that way if he is stopped he is less likely to appear as though he has it for any untoward reasons. The stereotype is that 'Chavs' carry knives, we know this is so general that it borders on being discrimination, however, thats the intelligence therefore people who are presenting themselves in that image are more likely to be stopped by the police (rightly or wrongly)

I carry a knife when I go into the hills, go climbing or camping, after all its a tool which I use frequently, I normally leave it in a pouch on my day sack.

 

[Paul_B]

We do like to discuss this topic don't we. If you don't mind I would like to tell of one friend who had a fixed blade knife in a pocket whilebackpacking. He's interested in bushcraft and is the pack everything in his huge bergen with PLCE pockets sort of a guy (carry something in case it is not needed, prepared for all). Another friend was a police officer and he decided to camp a little bit away from the copper so he could use said knife. Although we were all friends he felt he would not tempt fate. TBH I reckon he had no cause to carry such a knife. Afterall we were only backpacking two days through a pass in Scotland which hardly has a requirement for such a knife. It was a Falkniven fixed blade and quite a heavy duty fixed blade knife. It would have been right in law to arrest him for carrying it IMHO. The only thing he would haver cause to use it for is to open up a pack of dehydrated food and a simple SAK would have been better for that with a pair of scissors in it. Plus I'm sure he'd have cut himself with it if he'd tried to use it for that. He also had said SAK anyway. Plus he had too much gear and really suffered under his load. He also never even got it out except to show me in a conversation we had about knives. He has spent ages on the internet trying to find a knife that he felt fitted his needs / preferences.

The main point is we have these laws, however badly targetted or written they are, and have to live to them. AS someone said above this is not exactly hard. Carry what you have good reason to use, don't carry what is unreasonable for you to be using. A commando knife is unreasonable to carry at almost any time IMHO although if you re in a reenactment of some sort then perhaps, just perhaps it is reasonable but I'd make sure it was quite blunt though personally. Travelling to and from a meet where you have a reasonable use is ok but as always be discrete. DOn't get the bloody thing out on the train of two stops along the British Transport Police will be there with a wolcoming commitee and then its your own bloody self you've to blame for a lost bushy knife. I do think there is a little thing called discretion, if they can't see it they can't have reason to stop you unless of course your actions are such that they have cause to stop and search. I'm sure most sensible people on here are likely to be only carrying what they need and as such have a reasonable use. Also said people are most likely a respectable part of our community and are unlikely to give cause to be stopped and searched. Although I do not know you I am givving you the benefit of the doubt here for argument's sake.

I bought a tiny whitby folder that locks (the slip joint type I think where there is a piece of metal that springs in to lock it and is pushed to the side by user to unlock). it is about 1.5" long blade and has a little belt clip. I take it that this is illegal as an EDC unless I have reasonable cause to carry it? I bought to carry while backpacking as it is small and very light. I don't need anything bigger so light is right for me. In that situation it would be legal to carry. BTW I bought an opinel a few years ago and had to carry it across town to get it home. I felt nervous in case I got stopped but I still had a receipt. It was after reading one of the many other threads on this site about the law and knives. Point is I felt paranoid and worried but that was quite silly. A receipt dated and timed for the last 10 minutes with your knife in a bag through town is unlikely to get you in trouble. Also I had deep pockets and it was undetectablke tot he eye

 

[dogwood]

how are gun and knife crimes over there?

It's extremely difficult to compare the US/UK knife crime stats because over here violent criminals opt for guns rather than knives. Knives tend to come up more in domestic crime.

Since your criminals have a harder time getting guns than our criminals, a straight up comparison of crime stats isn't valid

FYI, in most big US cities, carrying a knife with more than a 3" blade is illegal just as it is in the UK.

But as HillBill so correctly points out -- the key here is do you have a use for it? I think HillBill's comments in this thread make a ton of sense.

i bet they are significantly lower than england because most people are carrying something they can use as a weapon if they need to making it more difficult for Mr delinquent with his kitchen knife to be a threat to Mr public with his gun.

The statement is not really the case in the US. "Most people" don't carry any type of weapon in the US even though in many places, they can. In fact, very few people carry a weapon here.

Indeed, the idea of carrying a knife or a gun for personal protection -- the whole EDC ethos -- tends to be held by a very, very, very small minority of very frightened men who are sure that villains lurk about every corner. If you see someone in the US with a gun on their hip solely for protection, you can be sure they're a frightened puppy.

There are PLENTY of good reasons to own guns -- I own quite a few. But I've never carried in public other than when going shooting, and I've never known anyone other than one guy who practiced open EDC. And he was scared of everything (a dangerous combination, guns and fear...)

Whether it's knives or guns, don't use EDC for protection -- it's dumb and it's false security. Being fit, alert to your surroundings and confident is much better protection.

EDC is more about living in some kind of fantasy world -- partly paranoid, partly dreaming of heroism -- than it is about practical defense.

Believe me, you do not want to get into a knife fight to defend your wallet. Few things in this world are more savage.

Being armed on the street for defensive purposes is foolish unless you find yourself in a situation with a significant breakdown in social order.

 

[william#]

when i was a nipper i would head out onto the hills and woodlands very often with a rifle and an old bowie knife on my belt would spend all day out almost certainly make a fire and a camp then head home
sometimes i would sleep out in my camp my bowie knife and rifle next to me

i hardly ever bumped into any one though that was mostley to do with always being in stealth mode

though i was young i never shot anyone with a rifle (well appart from that one time when a group of us dicided to play war with air rifles - no head shots , lol we were young right).

but seriously never acidently shot anyone would stalk around would not use rifle if people were arond and i always saw them before they saw me.

pretty much always had a fixed blade knife on me when in the woods i never stabbed anyone (was by myself mostly tbh)must have made 100s of spears as a youth

no one batted an eye that i had a rifle and knife even when i cam accross people , always take the oppotunity to break down the rifle around people.

im pretty sure the laws were fairly similar to what they are today it was people attitudes that are different.

the age of the screen has been great i love my pc s but tv and media have just stirred up us all into a frenzy

i dont have a rifle any more its sad but i just cant use one - just no where to go and as the urban majority have taken to the outdoors in there gortex lycra mountain bikes and hiking gear the whole place has got crowded

if i was to carry a rifle pretty sure i would have to chat to the police at some point.

knives have/are going the same way i would always have a fixed blade sheaved somewhere in my pack or person but these days i just dont , if you are carrying one and you are unfortunate enough to be stopped and searched it puts you in a compromising position of having to justify why you have one.

at the wildernes gathering last year one instructor even sudgested you keep your knife in a lockable bag to show any curious police officer that it was beyond use as a "weapon"

fact is the uk population has grown and many more people are taking to "getting out" the down side to this is more people = more rules

right im off to cry into my coffee

 

[durulz]

Since your criminals have a harder time getting guns than our criminals, a straight up comparison of crime stats isn't valid

Yeah, but isn't that just the point though?

 

[Minotaur]

It's extremely difficult to compare the US/UK knife crime stats because over here violent criminals opt for guns rather than knives. Knives tend to come up more in domestic crime.

The problem is not career criminals, but the other stuff that throws the stats off between the two.

Since your criminals have a harder time getting guns than our criminals, a straight up comparison of crime stats isn't valid

Not really, will people please get the point, they are criminals so breaking the law sort of the job. Actual our gun crime is raising so they report knife crime as a distraction, because when you have banned them nothing much left to do.

FYI, in most big US cities, carrying a knife with more than a 3" blade is illegal just as it is in the UK.

Yes, but not a locking knife like here. Leatherman are against the law for EDC because of this.

The statement is not really the case in the US. "Most people" don't carry any type of weapon in the US even though in many places, they can. In fact, very few people carry a weapon here.

Yet my favorite crime stat is the two safest places to live are both the ones with the most carried guns. Strangely criminals go elsewhere, a little like burglars avoiding alarmed houses.

Indeed, the idea of carrying a knife or a gun for personal protection -- the whole EDC ethos -- tends to be held by a very, very, very small minority of very frightened men who are sure that villains lurk about every corner. If you see someone in the US with a gun on their hip solely for protection, you can be sure they're a frightened puppy.

They should move here then, and be really afraid.

There are PLENTY of good reasons to own guns -- I own quite a few. But I've never carried in public other than when going shooting, and I've never known anyone other than one guy who practiced open EDC. And he was scared of everything (a dangerous combination, guns and fear...)

Apprently I am afraid because when the lottery comes in, hello Texas, and concealed carry.

Whether it's knives or guns, don't use EDC for protection -- it's dumb and it's false security. Being fit, alert to your surroundings and confident is much better protection.

I agree, the best weapon to carry is your brain, because they cannot take it off you, and it tends to be there when you need it.

EDC is more about living in some kind of fantasy world -- partly paranoid, partly dreaming of heroism -- than it is about practical defense.

Criminals are a fantasy. You really need to move here, I know just the local store for you to use.

Believe me, you do not want to get into a knife fight to defend your wallet. Few things in this world are more savage.

Finally I agree with you, I want to point my 9mm at him, and call the police. What I really do not want to do is get in a knife fight, when I do not have a knife.

The problem with these laws is they do not stop criminals, because criminals break the law. I do not want to carry a knife for self defense, a knife is not defensive, but being able to carry any of the nice plastic defensive tools availble in the US would be nice. Being able to carry anything incase some druged up or drunk idiot decides to kill me, would be nice.

You might want to look up what they are calling the 'CSI effect', one of the things these sort of programs are doing is training criminals to be better. One of the effects of this is they kill witnesses, because then no one left to point at them in court.

 

[MrEd]

i carry an edc knice, sub 3 inch non locking folder, i mainly open letters and parcels and occasionally cut string lol. its useful to carry, it has a marlin spike which i use way more than the knife.

 

[Urban_Dreamer]

im pretty sure the laws were fairly similar to what they are today it was people attitudes that are different.

Well you're half right. Attitudes have changed, but so has the law.

Ok I accept that what you were doing then was probably just as illegal then (I doubt that you asked the land owners permission about using your gun). However something like 1/3 of ALL UK laws have been enacted in the last 20 or so years!

The most stupid IMHO is the fact that our Olympic pistol team must train abroad, yet they and others will have a special dispensation under the law during the games.

I do accept that attitudes ARE the main issue though. Returning to knives, the law is there to aid everyone. To allow the police a good reason to stop thugs yet allow people to use knives. I believe that is why the law does not match the mob's desire of it or what Joe Public thinks.

It's NOT there to prevent people cutting their fingers off opening ready meals. Sure you don't need a Rambo first blood replica EVER. However the law is not there to prevent you owning or using one. It's there to prevent you carrying one to use on someone else (even in self defense*).

*Again it's a concept of those looking for trouble will find it. Hence would it really be self defense, given that fact. The same concept lies behind the law against combat knives, but I do hope that you note I picked a jack of all trades master of non knife. Sure it's THOUGHT of as a combat knife, but it would be a very poor choice as such.

 

[Hangman]

"Our knife laws are actually very sensible and not restrictive in the slightest to legitimate users of knives.

Anyone can carry a non locker sub 3" folding knife.

Anyone can carry a locking knife

Anyone can carry a fixed blade

The top one is a free for all, the next two require a reason for having it. If your not out to show off to your mates, threaten someone or stab someone etc then dont even give it a second thought.

A knife only becomes an offensive weapon once it is used in an aggressive or threatening way. Same as a hammer, screwdriver, spanner, hosepipe, pen or even a feather duster. Until then it is naught but a tool."

Unfortunately, in my dealings with the police, I have found that they start with the assumption that I am guilty and expect me to prove otherwise, and even then I have had certain idiots in uniform tell me they don't believe me.

"Has anyone reading this ever had a problem when out using your knife? Just curious as there loads of talk about this law, that law, perception etc"

Yes, the classic was last year at a militaria show - I was doing firelighting displays part of it involved me scraping birch bark and lighting with a fire steel on the back of my knife, there was a police presence at the show and one of plod watched me doing the display after the display finished he told me that I had an offensive weapon. He meant it in all seriousness. Bearing in mind that I:

Had company signs and displays up on my pitch.
Had just demonstrated the use of my tool.

I think I had more than demonstrated my reason having the thing, whilst talking to me he didn't bat an eye lid about the small forest axe I had.

One of his collegues turned up and he asked him what he thought of the offensive weapon I had - What offensive weapon his collegue asks, as far as he was concerned he saw my use a legit.

So had I met up with numpty I'd have had problems.

As per the Met Police report, around 85% of knife crime involves household knives, so why not control them as per my suggestion rather than legislating on knives and areas that are not really an issue ?????

 

[Tengu]

Did you take this coppers number and report him?

Half the trouble seems to be silly coppers.

Like the time I was stopped with the `you do realise this sort of car is often stolen?`

(I will say, my example had more dents than a banger racer.)