When open fires break byelaws......

[Nightwalker]

...I support the leave no trace principal, I believe in it very much so, but our problem is that's just me and a select handful of others that abide by it.

Very much with you on that one Leon!

However I will admit,I will occasionaly spark up an open-fire on Dartmoor where technically I shouldn't, but I will leave the site spotless, no trace of fire and how it was when I got there. I will only start a fire in a environment that will allow me to cover it's traces afterwards.

I understand the frustration people feel and they think we need to get this type of activity liscenced, but I don't think that is the way forward, we've got too much legislation and licensing in place as it is. Educating people about a LNT ethic would be constructive, but the useful implementation of it without liscence or money would be the tricky part.

After our camp recently (with an open-fire), we left our spot pristine, during our stay we discovered an old fireplace/camp 100yrds away, scorched grass, smashed glass and those tin-foil BBQ/trays that Leon loves we picked up the litter and brought it home, yet we still broke the law having our own fire? It's your attitude and education that matters like it's been said; the majority of people dont want to mess up the landscape, they just don't know any better and end up doing so, why don't the government spend some of our money on some nice TV/Radio ad's to catch the sheep; about enjoying nature/landscapes hiking/camping & clearing up after yourself. I don't think that will solve it all by all means, I don't have a definitive solution.

 

[falling rain]

Nice to see that you're looking on the bright side Nick, unfortunately you are correct in what you're saying on many occasions though.

Shame about Cockingford, but the scum of the universe appeared to be descending on the place from a couple of years back. The year that Johan and I were there it had started to go down hill (nothing to do with us) and unfortunately once it starts sliding it's unlikely to stop until it hits rock bottom.

I agree Leon.
I went there for the first time about 20 years ago, and it was a nice quiet place with just a few others even on a busy weekend. Unfortunately word has spread and now every man and his dog knows about it. Unfortunately some of those people have ruined it through their selfishness, ignorance and lack of responsibility. I wouldn't be surprised if it closed altogether and just the few static caravans remained. The farmer isn't getting any younger and could probably do without the hassle. Too many people going there now. Ruined by the few.

 

[BigShot]

I reckon there should be a license for people who want to make fires, and they should have to pass a
written and practical assessment before being issued a license. Kind of like the DVLA.

I know it won't stop idiots from making fires, but it might just stop a few of them and those who make a fire
and don't have a license would then be up for prosecution.

Of course, driving licences don't stop us having bad drivers.
Licencing would just mean more expense for a passtime that can be virtually free (a big attraction for people like me who aren't exactly loaded).

Who would enforce/endorse the licencing? Who would prevent the unlicenced from having fires? What would stop licence-holders from feeling like they had a catre-blanche to burn everything, everywhere?
We already see a scary number of new drivers getting into crashes because they think a licence means they can drive. I fail to see how fire-licences would be any different.

And finally - the last thing we need when we bugger off away from society for a while is the WORST element of society... government... following us out there, interfering and demanding yet MORE entitlement cards from us.

We need a Canadian/Swedish type of cultural education towards respect for the environment and the responsibility that comes with the rights they enjoy.

Most of all? We need people to actually enforce the laws we already have. If that's not happening, no amount of new legislation (positive or negative) will change a thing. At Loch Lomond there's a big problem with fires. Suspending the access laws won't change that. The people who will stop going weren't a problem in the first place.
It is lack of enforcement that is the problem.

As for fires... I've never gone so far as cutting turf. I look for stoney/sandy shores to camp on and there I can set a fire away from trees and roots and with a ready supply of water to douse anything out of control (though quite how anything I build would get out of control in a place like that is beyond me).

I like the idea of stoves/trays for more sensitive spots though.

 

[Cobweb]

Hmmmn, I think you are right, enforcing current laws is the priority. I didn't realise they didn't!
Around here if you are caught with an illegal fire, you are prosecuted. I just assumed it was the same everywhere else.

 

[Neumo]

Good thread this, as I was thinking about this very subject this afternoon from a 'leave no trace' perspective. I came to the same conclustion as Wayland that a Hobo stove or fire bowel ON LEGS was the solution, so you could have a fire (where it is not obviously dangerous to do so) without leaving a mark on the ground. I have been using my MK2 Hobo stove which has the air holes at the base of the can about 1/3 of an inch above the base of the can, which allows me to pour water over the burning out ashes when I am done; that way the ashes are sitting in water. By time I have finished my tea & packed up it's then safe to pick up the ashes in your hand & dispose of in a suitable place.

As someone wisely said above it's tecnically a stove, which probably would not wash in court if it came to it (what with flames & burning wood being involved) but I like the idea of it not being a fire on the ground, so you can leave the spot just as you found it.

 

[Adrian]

I think a part of the problem with people's attitudes, is that we don't have an outdoor culture anymore. Unlike the Scandinavian countries, and a lot of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, we are principally an urban culture with all that entails. Rubbish is someone elses' ( the council's) problem. No amount of education really gets around that in most cases, unless its' a part of the person's upbringing.

Personally - I tend to obey the bylaws. I don't think the Park Warden/Ranger or whatever they're called will really see a difference between me with my responsible leave no trace fire, and some pillock's fire, and will act accordingly. Carrying a hobo stove/ fire bowl AND fuel is, in my view, appropriately responsible, and leaves no trace

As has been pointed out, we are a small island with a lot of demand on the resources; it is impractical to expect the people charged with making/enforcing the relevant regulations to utilize a case-by-case approach. It is cheaper - and probably fairer, to apply them equally to everyone, even where that is a pain to the very few people who will/can act responsibly.

 

[Badger74]

I'd like a small fire when I'm out but it just isn't practical. The wayland inspired hobo is and I've spent many a morning cooking on it for the kids breakfast.

(Link not worked)

It's sat on a stand and has a windshield both made from baby milk tins.

 

[BushTucker]

Idiots obey rules and laws.
Wise people use them as guidelines.
If I was in a public park that had signs saying no open fires then I wouldn't, because there would be a good chance of members of public seeing and it may upset them and they may report it and I don't want the hassle of explaining my actions to a park warden who doesn't know me and therefore has no reason to believe that I am entirely responsible person.
However.
Should I be somewhere remote (that also says I may not light an open fire) then I would use my discretion.
Whatever I did choose to do, I would do so responsibly and ensure no risks were taken and no marks were left. If I did light a fire, that is. Which I wouldn't. Etc.

Personally i dont give a **** what you think your impression is of rules, I do however think you are totaly irresponsible for saying such things on this forum. What sort of lesson is crap like that for the younger bushcrafters on here and the reputation of the site for anyone else looking in.

 

[Nightwalker]

Bushtucker, chillout. Just because someone dosen't think in alignment with you on a matter, you needn't speak to them with such a confrontational attitude of which you probably wouldn't even uphold in a face to face conversation.

Just for the record: I liked his post.

 

[BushTucker]

Bushtucker, chillout. Just because someone dosen't think in alignment with you on a matter, you needn't speak to them with such a confrontational attitude of which you probably wouldn't even uphold in a face to face conversation.

Just for the record: I liked his post.

Actually Nightwalker, yes I would confront anyone about anything, but not normally in this way.

THAT SAID, I would like to appologise to all, especially durulz, Crap excuse but I had, had a seriously bad day and my rudeness was un-called for. I hope durulz, you will accept my appology for my out burst which realy had nothing at all to do with me and was none of my concerne.

Again I appologise.

Don
Bushtucker