Bushcraft first aid training

[Sniper]

Red Cross run various courses tailored to the groups needs/ wants. There will be a Red Cross branch near you I guarantee it, we get everywhere nowadays Lol. There is no such qualification as an outdoor first aid at work, the HSE only recognize the standard first aid at work certificate, you can however have bolt ons for the outdoors but drug prescribing is a definite no no as is the use of tourniques for any first aider. A standard first aid certificate holder (the highest level of training and competance available to the public) is allowed to administer only paracetamol for pain relief but only after certain criteria is met, the other is aspirin in the case of heart attacks again only when certain questions are asked and criteria met. As I said before a first aid at work course will cost over £300 but doing a more in depth standard certificate course as a member of the public, paying for it yourself will cost only £60 and nowadays we tend to tag the defib training onto this. Also I would like to clarify a little misconception if I may. It does not matter which first aid course you take, the treatment is exactly the same whether the ambulance will take 10 mins or 10 days, the procedure is the same. The only difference taught for differing ambulance eta is for fractures, and you will be taught both procedures on all courses even on the basic course. I hope this perhaps clears a few things up. May I also point out that although the Red Cross as an organisation no longer have youth group as part of their membership they do still cater in a major way to youth and schools first aid training nationwide. Also it may interest you that the Red Cross certificates are now recognised nationaly and internationaly.

 

[Minotaur]

Red Cross run various courses tailored to the groups needs/ wants. There will be a Red Cross branch near you I guarantee it, we get everywhere nowadays Lol.

Yes, including the American Red Cross running Wilderness courses.

There is no such qualification as an outdoor first aid at work, the HSE only recognize the standard first aid at work certificate, you can however have bolt ons for the outdoors but drug prescribing is a definite no no as is the use of tourniques for any first aider.

The HSE reconise three different First Aid at Work Certificates. The Standard, Offshore, and Diving.

As you said there are also bolt ons for different enviroments. Which do include adminstering drugs, for specfic reasons.

A standard first aid certificate holder (the highest level of training and competance available to the public) is allowed to administer only paracetamol for pain relief but only after certain criteria is met, the other is aspirin in the case of heart attacks again only when certain questions are asked and criteria met.

Oh no there not! :yikes:

Under one very specfic curcumstances you can give asprin, but that is all.

If you are a Red Cross member working for the Red Cross, if asked for, you can ask some questions, and provide the recommend doses of Paracetamol. The questions are approved by a doctor, and are basically what someone who can prescribe would ask. It is actually the same system for all non-doctors, regardless of drugs. They set up a protacal, and it is followed. I am not sure how the Nurse perscriping system works, but I think they are taking bits of the doctor course.

Also I am not actual sure what the highest level course a member of the public can get is. A First Aid at work Holder can do a EMT course, but there are all sorts of courses that you can do, that are higher than the First Aid at Work. The BTLS should be available to the Public, and that is the surposed to be a higher than first aid at work.

As I said before a first aid at work course will cost over £300 but doing a more in depth standard certificate course as a member of the public, paying for it yourself will cost only £60 and nowadays we tend to tag the defib training onto this.

It will cost you over £2000 to get a full Wilderness EMT certificate. First aid training courses are expensive. If you pay the £300, it counts and you can use it at work, and to go on other courses. At one point the two courses(Public, and Work - Work ignored children for a start) were slightly different, but the Red Cross always taught them the same. Which in a weird way made more sense.

Also I would like to clarify a little misconception if I may. It does not matter which first aid course you take, the treatment is exactly the same whether the ambulance will take 10 mins or 10 days, the procedure is the same. The only difference taught for differing ambulance eta is for fractures, and you will be taught both procedures on all courses even on the basic course. I hope this perhaps clears a few things up.

The standard first aid at work course is based around the 8 minute ambulance time. The offshore one is not because there is no way that casualty is going to be in hosiptal in under an hour.

I agree the procedure is the same, but a Wilderness course is double the hours of the standard course, so they teach more of the procedure than the standard first aid course because you are not going to wait 10 days for the next life saving step. For a start are you going to do CPR for ten days? Someone has been stung by a bee, massive allergic reaction, helecopter is going to take two hours, do you let them die or inject aredaline?

Wilderness medicine is a whole field on its own. Doctors do Wilderness medical courses.

May I also point out that although the Red Cross as an organisation no longer have youth group as part of their membership they do still cater in a major way to youth and schools first aid training nationwide. Also it may interest you that the Red Cross certificates are now recognised nationaly and internationaly.

Red Cross certificates are not recognised nationaly and internationaly unless something has massively changed. It was one of the big problems within the organisation. For a start the first aid at work cert, is a HSE cert, under their guidlines, and enforcement. Almost all of the other courses work that way, so they would have to be teaching what the course body wants them to, so the Red Cross on the certificate means nothing. The big problem is they taught the information but as their course, which outside of the Red Cross means nothing, because it does not have the realvant backing, or awareness.

I am not Red Cross bashing, I am a Red Cross member, and it is a brillant organisation, but like any it has its problems.

 

[Minotaur]

litigation - you cant be sued for doing nothing. infact it would probably wake the pc brigade up if more people admitted to knowing what to do but not bothering for legal reasons. there was the case of the community support officers who watched a kid drown because they said they werent trained in such situations.

As it stands, First aiders do not have a Duty of care, but this is coming, or being threaten for a while. Duty of care means you have to help, and if you get do not, and they find out you will be in trouble. If you have a Public you cannot be sued for doing something. If you have a First Aid at Work you are legally responsiable for your actions, insured at work, and if you plan to use it outside work, spend the £12 quid for the extra insurance. The Red cross used to throw the insurance for free, but worth a check.

the only issue I'm aware of is that if you start cpr then technically you are not allowed to stop unless a doctor says so.

This sounds like the their not dead thing. Which is basically only a Paramedic, or Doctor can say a person is dead, and stop treatment.

the best buy out is 'I am not a doctor, do you still wish me to go ahead?' another is dont give pills make them ask and pay for them. that way you are not prescribing.

To charge someone for drugs you need to be a Chemist, so that is breaking the law. Looks left, and right, you are would be better off giving them the drugs, and then dening it till your dying day. I never did it, no one saw me do, I did not do it, the Bart Simpson defense.

to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault

There is a really famous one of a First Aider giving CPR to a member of the Public. He did what he was taught, and got sued. That will teach him to save someones life, or to undo a bra strap, before starting CPR.

the whole wasting time in casualty gets me wound up. as a kid I'd fall off the swings onto the concrete and smack my head, go home complaining of a headache, get given and aspirin and I'd go to bed. now a child bumps into a door at school, goes to hospital in an ambulance, gets a scan and is monitored every hour overnight while the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim. sorry rant over

On the other hand I know of someone who discharge himself against medical advice after banging his head. He died from bleeding in his brain, two days later. The problem is that insurance companies stopped fighting claims, and now they have started again because it is costing them money. We live in a world were we have to guard against the worse happening, and everyone must be treated as an idiot. Look at the 'Baby P' case, they are up the creek because it is in black, and white what they should have done, but did not.

 

[crazydave]

[QUOTE:] To charge someone for drugs you need to be a Chemist, so that is breaking the law. Looks left, and right, you are would be better off giving them the drugs, and then dening it till your dying day. I never did it, no one saw me do, I did not do it, the Bart Simpson defense. [quote:]

the buy out is that by paying you they are requesting what you have offered so all you are doing is providing the goods not prescribing them which is the chemists job.once purchased its up to them whether they take it or not. looked into this in detail a few years back so cant remember the exact wording. you can buy aspirin from the corner shop the risk is in saying 'here take these'. if someone says I have a headache have you got any painkillers then technically you are okay charging just covers your back if its a stranger. when I was a megabowl manager we often got customers asking for something for a headache (normally mothers during the party season) and by stressing that you would have to charge them after they requested it them made it clear where you stood so minimising any negative feedback, never had a complaint, same goes for plaster allergies when people had their nails ripped off, charged em 10p and made them fillin the accident book. recently though there is the thing about not supplying enough for an overdose which is more silliness as you just go down the road to buy more.

if you want daft the woman in morrisons today giving out samples of pringles had to give them to the parents and then the parents were allowed to dose their kids with crisps. she wasn't allowed to give freebies to anyone under 18.

 

[Sniper]

Minotaur, the 3 HSE courses you name are the same certificated course but just different bolt ons relevant to activity.
Aspirin can only be given in the case of heart attack and not as pain relief as stated and you are spot on with the protocols for providing them.
You are again spot on with the differences between the level of training between FAW and the higher level of standard first aid for public. I just wish the HSE course would update to competancy based bringing it in line with modern techniques but I am informed they are now looking at doing this.
Ok I exaggerated by saying 10 mins to 10 days but as I said and as you agree the treatment and procedures are exactly the same, but obviously you got my drift.
Wilderness medicine I assume means making lotions and potions from natural things found in the outdoors, a great notion but as you rightly suggest this if for the more advanced persons like doctors, chemists and the like, no first aider would be allowed to administer any concoction be it home made or shop bought outside those already named (the exception would be burns kits).
A British Red Cross certificate for standard first aid is recognised throughout the UK and now in the EU and in many countries throughout the world, although it has always been recognised throughout the UK it is only very recently been accepted in the EU and beyond thanks to these new directives and standards in health and social care which the Red Cross have been working towards for the last 7 - 8 years, I believe they have only come into effect end of last year or the beginning of this year.
The HSE certificate is only acceptable here in the UK, but the standard first aid is the accepted certificate here and abroad and it is this standard first aid certificate which the international ER teams have, because their level of competance in first aid training as provided by Red Cross is recognised all over. It is only the standard certificate that is recognised mind you, not any other ones.
My main reason for pointing out these things in the first place is to highlight the fact that Joe Public can get the highest level of first aid training, locally and it does'nt need to cost the earth, for most people a 4 day standard course for the public is only around £60 all in, and I feel this is far from expensive for the training, and peace of mind knowing they can deal with any situation that could arise, and the fact that these courses are available, and no need to pay big bucks for a course.
Hope all this makes sense.

 

[Minotaur]

Crazy Dave,
That actual makes sense, but as a business you have Public Liability insurance. The modern problem is that you will get sued, and then it is a roll of the dice.

I buy Codine in 100's from Boots it does make me laugh. It is really funny when I buy ibuprofen at the same time.

Sniper,
You make sense.

I had not heard that the Public had gone international. The HSE course is basically the American course, in fact most of the courses are some version of an American course. The First Aid at work translates, so I surpose it makes sense that the Public would as well. It is such a nightmare at times. I really wish they would just give up, and take the US system full stop. There books make so much more sense, and they design everything so it builds on what you already know. If you get a chance, have a look at the BTLS(Not sure what the ITLS is like) book, it is surposed to be the next step after the First Aid At Work.

The Wilderness title is used on almost all courses that are outside of the Pre-Hospital window. The way I think it works is that it is Pre-Hospital if you are working towards the Golden Hour. As I said all of the courses are double the length, so they have more in them, training you to take steps you would not normally take.

I agree that the prices are a joke, but the First Aid at work does stand as the bottom run for all of the other courses, unless you go pro. An EMT course will set you back £600 pounds, so it really starts to add up. Espically when you add in retests.

The NVQ version is such a better course, but would be almost unworkable for people not in trade.

 

[pibbleb]

I was going to mention ExMed which I thought were in Wales but having re-looked at their website I'm not so sure.

As for the litigation, this is a huge concern for many people and a debate I would not presume to be an expert on. However, I am a Secamb (South East Coast Ambulance Service) Community Responder, this is when I wear my pants on the outside.

However, during the day when my pants are firmly on the inside lol! I am a trainee litigation lawyer. Bring on the scorn!!!! Hows that for a conflict of interest.

It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training. For example I am trained to use, and keep in the house, a defib, give aspirin and hypostop when appropriate, assist a patient with their GTN, and a epipen. These things I can do as I'm trained and proficient in their use.

Through other training I am also proficient in taking BM's readings, checking blood pressure etc however, the ambulance service protocols don't let me do this and so I don't! This keeps me safe and the service safe from any claims. This wouldn't stop irronious claims however I feel confident that there is plenty case law to protect me.

I'd also add that any 'samaritan' law wouldn't stop people trying it on. I'd say that says more about society rather than the legal profession. But I guess I'm biased.

 

[Minotaur]

I was going to mention ExMed which I thought were in Wales but having re-looked at their website I'm not so sure.

As for the litigation, this is a huge concern for many people and a debate I would not presume to be an expert on. However, I am a Secamb (South East Coast Ambulance Service) Community Responder, this is when I wear my pants on the outside.

However, during the day when my pants are firmly on the inside lol! I am a trainee litigation lawyer. Bring on the scorn!!!! Hows that for a conflict of interest.

It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training. For example I am trained to use, and keep in the house, a defib, give aspirin and hypostop when appropriate, assist a patient with their GTN, and a epipen. These things I can do as I'm trained and proficient in their use.

Through other training I am also proficient in taking BM's readings, checking blood pressure etc however, the ambulance service protocols don't let me do this and so I don't! This keeps me safe and the service safe from any claims. This wouldn't stop irronious claims however I feel confident that there is plenty case law to protect me.

I'd also add that any 'samaritan' law wouldn't stop people trying it on. I'd say that says more about society rather than the legal profession. But I guess I'm biased.

Wait till you go do the new First Aid At Work, they do not even take pulses any more. That has got so many people. Some people now have four, or five different CPR's depending on circumstances to remember.

Really fancy being a First Responder, but am to city bound at moment.

The law thing is just us becoming Americans, what ever happened to British Common sense?

 

[He' s left the building]

It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training.

That's the key phrase!!!

If you carry medical equipment that you are not familiar with and haven't been trained to use you are on very thin ice!

If you have a current certificate from St Johns or similiar and are carrying basic first-aid equipment (note use of terminology, I'm talking about first-aid equipment, not medical equipment) then you are entirely within your remit and capable of doing the 'Good Samaritan' bit.

I recently viewed a 'bushcraft' video on youtube where the guy said he carried a needle and thread for 'sewing up wounds and stuff'... very scary!!!

My post on another thread:

I carry a small water-proof plastic box (Pelican micro or supermarket special) containing Band-aids, purifying tablets, chewable imodium, chewable nurofen and any other small items to be kept dry and protected.

This box is then placed in a larger zip-pouch, along with: military field dressing, compression and triangular bandages, Sam-splint, AMK Heatsheet, micro-torch, whistle, Leatherman micro-tool (for the forceps and scissors), Laerdal pocket mask.

I think it is important to keep the kit in its own dedicated pouch, so it can be cross-loaded between large bag to day-pack to jacket pocket as required.

Although I have in the past been formally trained in emergency medicine, all the items in this basic kit need little specialist training and this is all I reckon I will need in 99% of 'first-aid' situations I am likely to encounter (in the other 1% if I haven't got access to trauma kit I accept I am unlikely to be of much use)

 

[Sniper]

All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.
Minotaur, taking pulses has been out for some time in the services side, and believe it or not all public and volunteer training for first aid must be done using casualty simulation and reacting casualties according to policy and has been like that for 10 years now but how many actually do it.
All I can say is PC and Health & Safety, plus the "no win no fee" brigade have a helluva lot to answer for. Nobody wants anybody to take resposibility for their own decisions anymore everything has to be regulated and confined.
Nobody has ever been sued or tried for trying to help someone in a critical condition, whether using the right techniques or not, in fact they are usually thanked by the family for trying to do something. However no one ever rammed two skyscrapers with passenger liners until 9/11 so just because it has'nt happened yet, does not mean it won't, and that I think is the true fear.

 

[Minotaur]

All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.

Tell me about it. Parents who take their kids out without suncream, medications, or give them enough water used to drive me nuts.

Minotaur, taking pulses has been out for some time in the services side, and believe it or not all public and volunteer training for first aid must be done using casualty simulation and reacting casualties according to policy and has been like that for 10 years now but how many actually do it.

I get the reasoning but it proves the problem with the current set up. The main problem is the second you do something like bag, and mask, you take pulses. As I said I know people who have to remember four or five different CPRs. I find it really hard to remember not to do it the way I was taught originally.

All I can say is PC and Health & Safety, plus the "no win no fee" brigade have a helluva lot to answer for. Nobody wants anybody to take resposibility for their own decisions anymore everything has to be regulated and confined.

I do not mind us taking in the best of what American has to offer, but do we have to get the worst as well.

Nobody has ever been sued or tried for trying to help someone in a critical condition, whether using the right techniques or not, in fact they are usually thanked by the family for trying to do something. However no one ever rammed two skyscrapers with passenger liners until 9/11 so just because it has'nt happened yet, does not mean it won't, and that I think is the true fear.

Has not someone been done for sexual assault, after doing CPR. I admit, I am sure I have been told he dug the hole for himself, but still. Also has a Doctor not been done on the street over killing a biker?

 

[He' s left the building]

All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.

Yep, my meds are for my personal use only.

As for giving out pills, potions and lotions to others, if you're not:

a. Qualified to do so

and

b. Aware of the casualty/patient medical history

then quite frankly you deserve to be sued.

It's not 'elf n safety gone mad', it's best practice based on past incidents where people have been harmed by enthusiastic amateurs.

 

[Sniper]

Has not someone been done for sexual assault, after doing CPR. I admit, I am sure I have been told he dug the hole for himself, but still. Also has a Doctor not been done on the street over killing a biker?

Have'nt heard of the assault incident mate, but ah doctors are a whole different level from my thoughts, was'nt really talking at that level, it being well above first aid and all. Well look at Dr Harold Shipman but that was'nt by mistake or bad technique, that was murder.

 

[He' s left the building]

... look at Dr Harold Shipman but that was'nt by mistake or bad technique, that was murder.

I wouldn't have shared a tarp with him?!!

I was searching for details of that incident on an aircraft where two (Brit?) doctors saved a passengers life by performing a needle decompression using a bottle of vodka and a coat hanger, when I came across this BMJ article dated from 2000 which makes for interesting reading: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1119071 The conclusion quotes 'A doctor on board an aircraft may encounter any medical emergency. The standard and range of equipment and drugs available on board varies but can be extensive. It is important that doctors who volunteer to help the crew manage an incident remember the first rule of medicine—“do no harm”—and practise within the limits of their training and knowledge.'

Good advice for anyone to follow; do a recognised course, carry a kit appropriate to your level of training and then follow what you've been taught when needed.

 

[crazydave]

I have heard of someone getting done for opening a womans blouse and bra for cpr but cant confirm it.

I wouldnt be surprised though

those two doctors made a posh butterly valve to releive plural swelling didnt they?

 

[He' s left the building]

I can't remember? Thinking about it now, it must have been ten years ago (?)

I remember talking to a doctor about it and he said (in his opinion) they took a massive risk and it's not something he would have attempted.

 

[He' s left the building]

Found it!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950524/ai_n13984214

I quote: 'The surgery, using a metal coathanger, an Evian water bottle, Sellotape and a bottle of brandy, began on Sunday on British Airways flight 032 from Hong Kong to London. It was a complete success. Ms Dixon even ate breakfast towards the end of the 14-hour flight.'

Incredible???!!!

More interesting reading about being a 'good samaritan' from the BMJ (2002) http://student.bmj.com/search/pdf/02/04/edit.pdf (starts on second page), although this piece is aimed at student doctors and not the lay-person.

 

[EdS]

if you can get hold of a copy Casualty Caer in Mountain Rescue by John Ellerton & MR(E&W) is a very good book to read. Just ignore the bit about drugs etc as you'll not have access to them anyway.

It is specifically geared to UK outdoors environment

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5617637
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Casualty-Care-Mountain-Rescue-Ellerton/dp/0950176575

The syllabus:

http://www.longtownmrt.org.uk/CasualtyCaresyllabus2005-8.pdf

 

[Minotaur]

I can't remember? Thinking about it now, it must have been ten years ago (?)

I remember talking to a doctor about it and he said (in his opinion) they took a massive risk and it's not something he would have attempted.

A lot of Pre-hospital trained people, will think outside the box, because they turn up with what is in the bag, and verhicle so if they have not got it, and the person needs it to survive, they have to do something. Also a lot of the reading, and other pre-hospital people, will be full of these stories.

 

[Dana Hawkeye]

The UK Remote Medics/Offshore Medics Course is for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors. The UK Mountain & Wilderness Medicine course is also for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors. As far as I know, the standard for First Aid in the UK has to be HSE Approved.

Did you know, that Nurses are not First-aid trained unless they have taken the 'extra' course? BTLS, by the way, does not count as a First-aid course. The NMC have recently revised the 'protocols' on what to do if a casualty is found outside of a NHS facility - Basically, only do what you feel you are competant and capable of doing. On NO account give any medicines as they are not prescribed.