Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Robson Valley]

No, you will never match the endurance and speed of a herd of 300,000 bison.
Chances are, you will annoy a few who will turn on you and stomp you to a pulp.

Without any doubt, the most dangerous and unpredictable animals in North America are the big herbivores.
From 6+ decades of anecdotal stories, a cow moose is about as dangerous opponent as a sow grizz.

As is very well established, allowing the bison to kill, maim and injure each other is much safer
and by far more efficient. Visit "Head Smashed In" buffalo jump, AB,or Wanuskewin, SK
the next time your up here on the prairies.

Looking at trophic levels, the herbivores and the carnivores, looking at energy flow and nutrient cycling,
the omnivores occupy a unique niche with little competition. I for one have no objection.

 

[Janne]

Because the studies are based on current meat eating habits, i.e. large amounts of ‘factory’ reared, antibiotics and hormone laden meat, plus the same people eat processed meat.

Yes, the resulting health risks of that meat eating are well known and documented.

Several cultures eat huge amounts of ‘natural’ meat and very little veg, and are very healthy.
Inuits, Same, Siberian tribes.
The world is not black or white!

Most of the African great apes hunt. Eat eggs, ants, ant larvae, small vertebrae, invertebrae. They actively hunt other larger animals too, including ither primates.
Primates in ither oarts of the world do the same.

The step between us and the apes is tiny. Nonexistent when it comes to the digestive system.

 

[Prophecy]

Because the studies are based on current meat eating habits, i.e. large amounts of ‘factory’ reared, antibiotics and hormone laden meat, plus the same people eat processed meat.

In rural China 20 years ago? Does the meat we buy in the west not contain antibiotics and hormones and do we not eat processed meat too?

 

[Janne]

Yes most of our meat does unfortunately, hence maybe the health issues.
China 20 years ago? A more toxic and destroyed environment is difficult to find. And it is getting worse.
Plus they have a custom of using raw human waste on the fields, in aqua culture.
Heard about mixing human waste with pig feed? Common practice in China!

 

[Fadcode]

before i abandon this post, as I think everything that needs to be said, has been said, and to me there doesnt seem to be a way to end it, without conflict,
I am an omnivore, and will always be one, I have no intention of becoming a Vegan or a vegetarian.
I will admit that, although I know that vegans totally abstain from meat, dairy, and certain other variations of foodstuff, and everyday items, eg. leather shoes, etc etc,and to me I dont see a problem with their choices, there are things I dont know, for instance, and I am not trying to be funny or sacastic when i ask you these questions, and I honestly would like to know the answer,
Do vegan mothers breast feed their children?
Would they allow their children to be omnivores, or vegetarians?(obviously when they are older)

 

[Janne]

I bow out too.

 

[Robson Valley]

I'm convinced that when you must live in a large population center, it's almost impossible to get away
from factory food (as I call it). I can buy factory food if I need to.
We have a regular grocery store in the village with mostly regular products.
The nearest city is 75,000 and 2.5 hrs away.
The rest of the time, most of the time,I can buy and barter locally for what I'm quite satisfied is organic.
No supplements, no pesticides.
Since they were planted in 2001, my grape vines have been sprayed with water (rain).
My pesticide is a tribe of chickadees that work from south to north, every morning, through the vines.

I'm in the box program from an organic garden and that alone has forced me to be a little more diligent
about my professed omnivory in the past couple of years! Eat everything in moderation. Good plan.
The end. Me too.

 

[santaman2000]

......The largest study ever carried out on nutrition has proven that meat is not good for is and that diet optimal for human health is zero animal products. In order to make a statement like 'meat is good for us' you'd have to forget about all those links to cancer, heart disease, diabetes.....

Ummm. No. Meat isn't linked to diabetes; carbs are (sugar to a lesser extent, but mostly carbs) Studies to back that up? How about my diabetes nurse, my primary doctor (an Internal Medicine doctor) and my dietician?" ALL of them and all of the educational literature they've given me have, and still, say to eat fewer carbs and more lean meat (preferably poultry and fish) to reduce my blood sugar and my weight.

 

[santaman2000]

Santaman2000, obviously I agree, as would anyone, that letting cows roam on pasture is a 'better' solution.

But from what I've read, up to 99% of farm animals in the US come from intensive factory mega farms.......

...........6 months ago, The Guardian reported that we had 800 of these in the UK.........


..........If pasture raised animals are a minority, then there's not much weight to your argument about land use........

......... Mono-cultures do host a variety of wildlife, but just aren't as biodiverse.......

You either missed or ignored one of my points about ranching on open range: Those ranches ARE our mega factory farms. The type of cattle production you're thinking of is just far, far too expensive to be practical when grazing rights on several thousand acres of open range (enough to support hundreds of thousands of head of cattle) cost only a few hundred dollars per year. I'm old enough to remember when those grazing leases were even cheaper ($1 for 99 years)

Even pastureland back East is too cheap for any other method to be competitive. I rent my own farm out (73 acres) for just $800 per year to a a cattle farmer who raises around 50 head per year. It is, still the normal, most common cattle producing method simply because it's the most cost effective in the true cattle producing parts of the world (Australia, the South American Pampas, and the North American Great Plains) I won't debate that issue any farther. It's settled fact.

No. Monocultures are do NOT host a variety of wildlife. We farmers and ranchers deliberately eliminate any invasions. Again, settled fact.

 

[santaman2000]

If nature 'intended' you to eat meat, you'd have big sharp claws, huge incisors, you'd be able to run super fast, you'd salivate at the sight of a bunny or the inside of a slaughter house etc etc. Put an apple and a rabbit in a baby's cot and see which one he'll eat.....

You might have made a better choice of vegetable. A carrot will be harder for a toothless baby to eat than a soft worm. It would have been more sensible if you'd chosen a banana.

 

[santaman2000]

Yeh basically you have to be careful with your question. Are we carnivores? What does that mean? Does it mean what do we do? What period? Does it mean what are we best at doing? Does it mean what our anatomy is capable of doing? Or what's optimal for our health?

How do we know that our ancestors didn't have health problems due to meat consumption?

In this context it means what our anatomy is designed for. It's not designed to be either exclusively carnivore nor herbivore. Our teeht and digestion are designed (evolved) to thrive on a combination.

No, we don't have, nor did our prehistoric ancestors, have the speed and strength to run down and kill large game like buffalo unarmed. However robbing bird nests, grubbing for bugs and worms, catching the occassional rat, or even scavenging remains from kills of large predators were all quite within the capabilities of unarmed primitive men.

 

[santaman2000]

......Chimps eat insects and meat as about 1% or 2% of their diet... What do chimps have to do with it?

What do chimps have to do with it? They're one of our closest relatives and their natural evolutionary diet will be similar to ours. They eat bugs? Yes they do. Bugs are meat. They also hunt, kill, and eat monkeys

 

[Robson Valley]

Humans have had the skill to kill hundreds of big herbivores at a time. Not a herd of rabbits like other places
but bison. They kill each other in a jump. You spear the cripples. What else do you need to understand?
Make a corral in a bluff of trees. Patiently drive a few into that. Spear them all = done.
Those are documented facts of North America, practices which persisted well into the 19th century.

 

[santaman2000]

In rural China 20 years ago? Does the meat we buy in the west not contain antibiotics and hormones and do we not eat processed meat too?

I don't know about ALL western (European and the Americas) meat, but in the US at least, NO. At least not as far as poultry. Growth hormones and antibiotics are bothe illegal in poultry production and have been all my life.

Fadcode posted a list farther upthread showing the toxins of various vegetable or plant. Most of it was true enough but there are three discrepencies I'd like to point out:

1) Yes, celery can easilt take up toxins but in the context of this discussion it's probably irrelevant (it has negative calorie content and almost zero nutrition so it seems unlikely it would be a realistic dietary choice for a vegan anyway)

2) The list stated the best way to avoid pesticides on corn was to choose Non GMO. I think the authoor meant either GMO or organic (Most organic crops are indeed GMO) One of the main reasons for GMO is to develop a strain that doesn't need chemical fertilizers or pesticides) If it's Non GMO, then it's much more likely to have been sprayed with pesticides than Non GMO.

3) The warning about chocolate being fatal to dogs. Yes, it can be, but only in extremes. I'd been sharing my chocolate with all my dogs for over 40 years before I ever heard of it. When I did hear it I asked my veterinarian and he just shook his head and said don't worry about it; it's only a problem when a dog finds a couple of pounds and eats it at one go.

 

[santaman2000]

Humans have had the skill to kill hundreds of big herbivores at a time. Not a herd of rabbits like other places
but bison. They kill each other in a jump. You spear the cripples. What else do you need to understand?....

True, but that wasn't until they'd evolved to the point of cooperative hunting and weapons (even a crude flint spear is a weapon) In my post I was stating that even before that, they were eating meat and animal products like all the other primates.

 

[Robson Valley]

Agreed. Co-operative social activity can only be predated by language and communication.
I'll give it a million years. Monkey see, monkey do.

 

[Prophecy]

before i abandon this post, as I think everything that needs to be said, has been said, and to me there doesnt seem to be a way to end it, without conflict,
I am an omnivore, and will always be one, I have no intention of becoming a Vegan or a vegetarian.
I will admit that, although I know that vegans totally abstain from meat, dairy, and certain other variations of foodstuff, and everyday items, eg. leather shoes, etc etc,and to me I dont see a problem with their choices, there are things I dont know, for instance, and I am not trying to be funny or sacastic when i ask you these questions, and I honestly would like to know the answer,
Do vegan mothers breast feed their children?
Would they allow their children to be omnivores, or vegetarians?(obviously when they are older)

What?! Why wouldn't vegan mothers breastfeed their children? What's that got to do with veganism?!

 

[Prophecy]

In this context it means what our anatomy is designed for. It's not designed to be either exclusively carnivore nor herbivore. Our teeht and digestion are designed (evolved) to thrive on a combination.

No, we don't have, nor did our prehistoric ancestors, have the speed and strength to run down and kill large game like buffalo unarmed. However robbing bird nests, grubbing for bugs and worms, catching the occassional rat, or even scavenging remains from kills of large predators were all quite within the capabilities of unarmed primitive men.

Good answer. I tend to agree.

But here's the thing, no matter what we've evolved to do, what does it matter? It's known as the tradition fallacy.

Does tradition and habit have any bearing on ethics? It was legal and perfectly acceptable to keep slaves at one point in time, but we collectively decided that it was not ethical.

Are things that are 'natural', ethical? We used to rape and pillage our way through life. We don't anymore because it's not ethical.

Same thing goes for what's 'natural' or not. Being natural or not has no beating on its ethics.

Nowadays we have supermarkets. We have canning. We have millions of others foodstuffs that we can thrive on.

We don't need to eat meat at the expense of 3,000 animals *every second* being killed in slaughter houses around the world. These are living, sentient beings who have emotions, families, relationships and personalities. Regardless of their treatment during their lives, their lives are cut terribly short, and they are killed when they want to live, and it's all completely unnecessary.

 

[Prophecy]

I would encourage anyone to watch a UK animal agricultural industry documentary called The Land of Hope and Glory which contains footage of over 100 of our largest meat farms in the UK. This is where our meat comes from.

 

[dave89]

I just really really like cheese

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