New knife purchases from shop in person only?

[C_Claycomb]

I agree that we don't do enough, often enough, to stand up against changes in the law that impact and restrict us, so I want to see this thread continue, but

No Politics. So please keep the general anti-government rants to yourselves. I feel the same, but this isn't the forum for it.

Similarly, can our North American brethren please recognise that in the UK self defence is not a reason for having a knife. Rather the opposite, and posting that a restriction on knives is a restriction on your right to self defence is only likely to make British politicians feel better about tightening the laws. Not helpful.


Corso, if you live in London you are closer to a bricks and mortar knife shop than most of us outside of London. There are several in Soho and one on Baker Street, that I know of.

That is the problem that I see with this idea. When the law changed for airguns and you needed to go to a store to collect NEW airguns, there already existed a population of gun shops, all of whom were "in it together" and for whom it was in their collective interest to accept packages and allow collection. I have a feeling that they charge for this, but am not 100% sure.

What shops are there that would accept collection of mail order knives? There are no bricks and mortar knife shops, or almost none. There are kitchen shops, The Japanese Knife Shops in London...some gun shops sell knives, but mostly junk, camping shops maybe, a few bushcraft/gun shops. This is not a cohesive network. It is already hard enough, as I found, to ship knives from point A to point B, with the only carrier service being Royal Mail, but the same factors that dissuade DHL, UPS and FedEx from handling knives will surely apply to other businesses. Knives make up such a small part of the business for things like kitchen shops and camping stores that they don't really have much incentive to accept a trickle of high value, possibly dangerous, packages, for which they are then responsible to both the purchaser and the government for checking ages.

Airguns are generally pretty high value, bottom end is still over £100 and they quickly run up to £500+ territory. Most folk don't own many, hardly anyone is going to want a collection of dozens, unlike knife users. I am not a collector, yet I still have about 28 knives which I have not made myself. Maybe half of those came via the mail.

Full time makers are probably not a source of knives to criminals since the necessary waits and communications are probably unattractive, not to mention the cost, but a unilateral ban on mail order will be the end of them.

 

[mrcharly]

I agree with most of the observations about kitchen knives - being stabbed with a serrated veg knife is a terrifying prospect, the knives cost tuppence from a supermarket, every kitchen has them.
If legislation should be brought in, it should extend the 'zombie knife' type of restriction and clamp down on the sort of shop that sells those junk things and anything else that encourages knives/machetes/edged tools to be viewed as weapons. There is a shop in the city near me that falls into that category, I've even seen a knuckleduster in the display window.

 

[mark.177]

[video=youtube;S37tEsBt7D4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S37tEsBt7D4[/video]

 

[Faz]

I'm assuming that small makers of knives etc might get away with being private sellers and based on private air gun sales, they might get away with posting?
Might be stretching it a little but may get away with it.
Although, maybe not worth the hassle of getting caught out and hauled to court


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FoxyRick]

I agree that we don't do enough, often enough, to stand up against changes in the law that impact and restrict us, so I want to see this thread continue, but

No Politics. So please keep the general anti-government rants to yourselves. I feel the same, but this isn't the forum for it.

Good post! It's difficult to keep the politics out when the government starts doing things like this, but when I sit back and think for just a few seconds it isn't the government that is to blame.

If we accept things like this without even speaking out about it, we are to blame and deserve what we get.

I find it difficult to stomach those comments (and I'm not trying to be offensive or start a fight) which are a little accepting of these proposals. Those who think it won't have too much effect on them, so why bother about it. It will have a bigger effect on others, me included, but that's OK because 'I'm alright Jack'.

If we continually bow our heads and accept 'little' changes like this, because they don't hit 'us' too hard at the moment, where will it end? It seems in this country that the general rule, every time, is to punish and restrict the majority rather than deal with the minority. It starts in school, continues in workplaces, and ends with the government doing to to everyone. I've seen so much of it that it makes me sick.

This has all been said so many times it's cliched. If we don't protect each other's rights and freedoms, eventually we will lose all our own. All of them!

The very least I can do is write to my MP. I have, even though I doubt it will make the slightest difference. If everyone on every knife, outdoors, firearm, woodworking, cooking etc. etc. forum did so, it might be a different story. Or if we really did get together and protest in the streets.

I feel more strongly about this than I can express, and not just because it's a knife issue. I've watched what has been done in this country for fifty years. I've often been the one to stand up and speak out against it, while those who agreed with me a minute before suddenly shrank into the woodwork and kept their heads down. I eventually learned from that, and that's the only reason I am not out on the streets protesting on my own, because that's likely what it would be.

Rant over

I urge everyone here to at least write to their MP demanding them, as our elected representatives, not to punish ordinary, law-abiding people for the (already illegal) actions of a small minority.

...

If legislation should be brought in, it should extend the 'zombie knife' type of restriction and clamp down on the sort of shop that sells those junk things and anything else that encourages knives/machetes/edged tools to be viewed as weapons. There is a shop in the city near me that falls into that category, I've even seen a knuckleduster in the display window.

It is already illegal to sell a knife as a weapon. Knuckle dusters are on the specified 'banned' list and are not allowed to be sold. That shop should be dealt with under existing laws. There is nothing wrong with whatever type of knife they want to sell (except those on the 'list') providing they are not advertised as weapons. The knives are not the problem; if the seller of them is then that seller should be dealt with. Not by restricting someone's ability to buy the knives for whatever legal reason (including, simply, 'I want one').

 

[C_Claycomb]

The thing is, we ARE a minority.

I am willing to bet that there are more people out there who think any knife that isn't a kitchen knife is automatically a weapon, who can't fathom spending more than £20 on a top kitchen knife, than there are who think of them as tools and know that there is better available than what you find in the super market. I am certain that there are more teen who carry a knife as a weapon or status symbol than there are who would want to as a tool and sign of mature responsibility. There are certainly a majority of people who will be totally unaffected. For them this is such minor news that it wasn't even carried by BBC.

Maybe we need to start acting like an oppressed minority...:vio:

I aim to write to my MP, but I want to marshal a good argument. I am thinking along the lines that this proposal hammers an otherwise law abiding minority in the population as part of the latest in a series of ineffective attempts by government to tackle social problems through bans and criminalisation of the innocent under the banner of "pre-crime".

No idea how scroats are buying knives these days, probably they ARE buying on-line since the age limit was increased and more pressure brought in on shops to check ID. If they sellers through Amazon are not checking, just come down hard on Amazon and they will go the way that ebay did.

 

[frosty bow hunter]

I would be more than happy to have any knife I buy shipped to my local RFD and show my ID.
Not ideal but can be done.
At the moment I have all my purchases shipped to my works address, also I know I'm going to be in when they are delivered to be signed for.

 

[Janne]

TE=frosty bow hunter;1821995]I would be more than happy to have any knife I buy shipped to my local RFD and show my ID.
Not ideal but can be done.
At the moment I have all my purchases shipped to my works address, also I know I'm going to be in when they are delivered to be signed for.[/QUOTE]

 

[daveO]

What is everyone getting so worked up about? There has been an age restriction on lots of products for years and it's a logical step for the authorities to enforce the restiction in on-line sales. No one is saying you can't have your knives just that the age restriction isn't being enforced as it should be. At a very basic level all this needs is for courier companies to ask to see ID before they'll release an age restricted parcel at your door. If they insist on collection from a physical premisis then surely collection from your local post office wouldn't be too taxing. Frankly I'm amazed that this kind of system isn't already in place.

 

[hughlle1]

The next step might be a Knife Registration. Just for the Statistics of course. No other intention.
After that you might need to get a Knife Permit. As it is an offensive weapon that can be used in criminal acts
The step after is a total Ban.

Interestingly, the CPS website seems to differentiate a knife from an offensive weapon "Prosecutors should recognise that carrying an offensive weapon, or a knife, or a bladed/pointed article is a serious offence"

What is everyone getting so worked up about? There has been an age restriction on lots of products for years and it's a logical step for the authorities to enforce the restiction in on-line sales. No one is saying you can't have your knives just that the age restriction isn't being enforced as it should be. At a very basic level all this needs is for courier companies to ask to see ID before they'll release an age restricted parcel at your door. If they insist on collection from a physical premisis then surely collection from your local post office wouldn't be too taxing. Frankly I'm amazed that this kind of system isn't already in place.

I've yet to hear the official statement, but according to the guardian they'd have to be collected in person. Why would that have me worked up? Because that would mean a 2 hour walk through London (or pay for transport on top of the postage I've already paid to have the item sent to my door) to collect it, and only at certain times, most of which do not accomodate people with jobs.

 

[daveO]

I've yet to hear the official statement, but according to the guardian they'd have to be collected in person. Why would that have me worked up? Because that would mean a 2 hour walk through London

Perfect. The government get knife control and a way to combat obesity at the same time. In all seriousness though I imagine post offices wouldn't be the only place that could be used but the consultation will have to work that out. No doubt they will make a mess of it but perhaps lobbying your MP to push for a more convenient method of verifying your age would make more sense than brandishing your burning pitchforks in the street and demanding our rights to carry knives.

 

[Janne]

Interestingly, the CPS website seems to differentiate a knife from an offensive weapon "Prosecutors should recognise that carrying an offensive weapon, or a knife, or a bladed/pointed article is a serious offence".[/QUOTE



I am not versed in the inner workings of the British legal system. Sorry about that!
-
But my point is still valid. Just wait and see what happens the next couple of decades.

 

[hughlle1]

Perfect. The government get knife control and a way to combat obesity at the same time. In all seriousness though I imagine post offices wouldn't be the only place that could be used but the consultation will have to work that out. No doubt they will make a mess of it but perhaps lobbying your MP to push for a more convenient method of verifying your age would make more sense than brandishing your burning pitchforks in the street and demanding our rights to carry knives.

As I say, no official statement yet so currently just working on basis of post office sorting office. Saying that though, I can't think of a single shop anywhere near me that would might offer a collection service. They're all just dodgy halal butchers and out of date produce corner shops. The way I see it though, is that if they can't crack down on online shops not checking for age, then will these shops follow the new law anyway, or just stick it in a box and pop it in the post as normal? You'd almost think there was also no such thing as the dark web. If a gang member can't buy his knife from a regular website due to age, well it will not take 2 minutes to obtain one from whatever has now replaced silkroad etc. Not to mention, the whole thing is just silly, if a 15 year old gang member can't get a knife, then an 18yr old gang member will just get it for him instead.

Sorry, I know I'm just beating a dead horse. The whole thing is just stupid and anyone with a brain, whether a proponent for responsible knife carry or anything will know that this will achieve the square root of diddlysquat. It just really boils my blood the way this country goes utterly and completely overboard from a handful of incidents we are completely powerless to prevent.

I am not versed in the inner workings of the British legal system. Sorry about that!

But my point is still valid. Just wait and see what happens the next couple of decades.

Oh, I wasn't trying to correct you or anything, I'm about as well versed as you. I just decided to google offensive weapons and was surprised that they seemingly distinguish between a knife, and an offensive weapon, even though a knife clearly falls under the definition of an offensive weapon. And you're probably right. In the next couple of decades home delivery grocery shopping will become mandatory to stop us going outside and putting ourselves in harms way

 

[Janne]

Search for 'a brief history of British gun control'

 

[hughlle1]

Search for 'a brief history of British gun control'

Thanks for that. A rather depressing read. All the more reason to get money in the bank and get off this stupid island

 

[mrcharly]

even though a knife clearly falls under the definition of an offensive weapon.

No It Doesn't

A knife CAN be used as an offensive weapon but is designed for the purpose of being used as a tool.

That is a clear and fundamental difference.
There is a SAK in my bag. It is a tool.
My son is a chef - he has at times carried more than 8 sharp knives in a bag, wrapped up. All tools, all absolutely fine for him to have with him. Tools, not offensive weapons.

Calling knives 'offensive weapons' really doesn't help.

 

[daveO]

Search for 'a brief history of British gun control'

People don't butter their bread with guns, they don't cut carpet with guns, chef's don't prepare food with guns. If you think enforcing the existing age restriction on knives is the next step to facism then you might want to stop reading the tabloids and have a bit of a reality check. A more appropriate analagy would be the 'challenge 25' system that was brought in for alcohol sales.

This proposal will go out for consultation and sellers will have to work to find a satisfactory proposal that offers customers sufficient convenience without comprimising the age check process. Hopefully it won't be a huge leap to get courier companies on board to do checks at your door. It won't keep everyone happy but if they restrict knife purchase because of age then they will have to restrict all other 18+ items and that is a huge chunk of on-line sales.

Funny story: My wife was refused alcohol at the supermarket because of the challenge 25 system. She had no proof of age but she did have ID from her job as a licencing officer for the local authority. They still refused to sell to her...

 

[Janne]

People butter bread, cut carpets and prepare food with the knifes we have, use, make, collect?
No, they do not.

Yes, a gun is or can be used to get food, be it a shotgun or a rifle.
Handguns - sport. UK was big in the various disciples of handguns internationally.

It is all about control.

People don't butter their bread with guns, they don't cut carpet with guns, chef's don't prepare food with guns. If you think enforcing the existing age restriction on knives is the next step to facism then you might want to stop reading the tabloids and have a bit of a reality check. A more appropriate analagy would be the 'challenge 25' system that was brought in for alcohol sales.
+
=daveO;1822014]People don't butter their bread with guns, they don't cut carpet with guns, chef's don't prepare food with guns. If you think enforcing the existing age restriction on knives is the next step to facism then you might want to stop reading the tabloids and have a bit of a reality check. A more appropriate analagy would be the 'challenge 25' system that was brought in for alcohol sales.

This proposal will go out for consultation and sellers will have to work to find a satisfactory proposal that offers customers sufficient convenience without comprimising the age check process. Hopefully it won't be a huge leap to get courier companies on board to do checks at your door. It won't keep everyone happy but if they restrict knife purchase because of age then they will have to restrict all other 18+ items and that is a huge chunk of on-line sales.

Funny story: My wife was refused alcohol at the supermarket because of the challenge 25 system. She had no proof of age but she did have ID from her job as a licencing officer for the local authority. They still refused to sell to her...

 

[hughlle1]

No It Doesn't

A knife CAN be used as an offensive weapon but is designed for the purpose of being used as a tool.

That is a clear and fundamental difference.
There is a SAK in my bag. It is a tool.
My son is a chef - he has at times carried more than 8 sharp knives in a bag, wrapped up. All tools, all absolutely fine for him to have with him. Tools, not offensive weapons.

Calling knives 'offensive weapons' really doesn't help.

Under the law, it would be classed as an offensive weapon until the point where you can show that it is reasonable for you to have it on your being. It may indeed be a tool, but until that is determined, it is an offensive weapon.

 

[daveO]

People butter bread, cut carpets and prepare food with the knifes we have, use, make, collect?
No, they do not.

Yes, a gun is or can be used to get food, be it a shotgun or a rifle.
Handguns - sport. UK was big in the various disciples of handguns internationally.

It is all about control.

You're making up points to suit your own arguement. No one will starve with gun control as it stands, no one needs an unlicenced gun to perform everyday tasks and this proposal has no relevance to gun control in the slightest. If you think full knife 'control' will happen then every single household in the UK would need a licence or similar for their kitchen equipment, every workshop would need one for their Stanley knives and chisels. The knives generally sold or traded on this forum may have niche appeal but, as the 'Zombie knife' legislation has shown, trying to ban a particular type of knife is not a simple process and needs good grounds for offering potential to threaten life and evidence that these knives are used to do that.