Ventile as Sole Waterproof?

[Nice65]

It worked for me at this years Moot. It ha become a firm favourite already, and the sea of green ventile at Merthy Mawr leads me to believe that it must work! 200 Bushcrafters can't all be wrong, can they?!

I reckon you're right. I've had a Keela Falkland for years. I spent over 6 hours in tipping rain one time, and it only started to let in around the shoulder straps of my pack. Was a pain to dry though, stood up on its own by the fire for a bit. So, not long, long term rain gear, but in my experience, a very good material.

When I got back to my camp, the rain was stopping. I hung it on a tripod of Hazel sticks by the fire, retreated to my hammock for tequila and a choice cigar and watched it steam away. I like Ventile very much.

 

[Adze]

9 years! You sir, win the thread resurrection trophy for today!

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

Ok my experiences with Ventile.

If it is a day when it's raining on and off all day especially if I'm active (on a walk for example) I'd always choose ventile, just because you'll never get totally soaked, and half the time the fabric is drying anyway.

if it was a downpour all day I'd stick with traditional waterproof gear.

The thing is Ventile is a double edged sword, I does get wet it has to otherwise it dosen't work, but because of this it causes heat loss through conduction, but i've found that little bit of cold/damp it's far more comfortable than any man made waterproof that leaks or has "condensation".
Yes the fabric gets stiff like cardboard when wet but it's not that different from the feeling of wearing a waterproof over a jacket.
The other thing is when dry it is like wearing a soft cotton shirt, it won't melt from campfire sparks and it doesn't get that musty smell that waterproofs get.

But if it really chucks it down I'd use a standard waterproof.

 

[Nice65]

9 years! You sir, win the thread resurrection trophy for today!

Very strange. I only ever tap on New Posts.

I suspect someone voted on the poll and it bumps the thread without a reply showing. It was rather late at night, I didn't notice the dates.

 

[Tonyuk]

I wouldn't like to chance being in rain too long wearing just ventile.

Tonyuk

 

[Tiley]

One possible solution would be to sniff out one of the Dutch Army Goretex liners. They were designed to go under the polycotton combat jackets I believe and are pretty good at extending the use of Ventile into the realms of the continuous downpour. I got mine from SASS Kit years ago so I don't know how easy they'll be to find but there might be some still floating about.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

I know the ones you mean,
I'm sure part of the reason they were worn under the Combat jacket is for noise concelment reasons, early Military issue waterproofs were horrendously noisey, the Brit issue poncho a good example was like a crisp packet as were the DPM PU coted waterproofs I was issuedin the 90's.
I'd be interested in seeing the durtch liner just to see the design, I remember it looking grey in the catalouge, but did it even have pockets or a hood?

 

[Tiley]

Absolutely right: there is no hood and no pockets. The garment looks grey because it is not laminated to any face fabric as such. In wearing one under your Ventile, you are effectively creating a two-layer Goretex jacket. My liner has buttons up the front and the combination does work surprisingly well; the only hassle is having to remove your Ventile to put it on - not much fun in a complete deluge. Still, I suppose in that event, you'd start off wearing it anyway. I would also add that, as these things are several years old, you don't get the 'breathability' of the more modern Gore laminates, so it can get a little damp inside if you're working hard.

I'm afraid I don't have any pictures of it but I'll see if I can't get a couple done at some point to give you a clearer idea.

 

[Tonyuk]

A gore liner wouldn't breathe under a soaked ventile anyway, so you would still end up sweating in it, probably worse than with no liner at all.

Tonyuk

 

[IC_Rafe]

A gore liner wouldn't breathe under a soaked ventile anyway, so you would still end up sweating in it, probably worse than with no liner at all.

Tonyuk

Pretty much yeah. I already can't stand to wear a waterproof jacket unless it's cold. Else i just wet it out by sweating. Usually prefer a water resistant fleece and a poncho when it's really wet (sea to summit poncho tarp, the nylon one). The fleece dries out fast anyway if you can get to a dry space, like after setting up a tarp (using a different tarp than my poncho for shelter).

 

[Tiley]

A gore liner wouldn't breathe under a soaked ventile anyway, so you would still end up sweating in it, probably worse than with no liner at all.

Tonyuk

Too true! But, if you're not moving around a great deal, it will delay the dampness in the Ventile from penetrating your underlayers. It is one of the reasons why I check the forecast and then make a decision about where I'm going to be and what I'll need to take. For the most part, the Ventile is fine but the full waterproof does offer rather more confidence in truly grotty weather.

 

[Polecatsteve]

Ventile single layer over wool shirt. Even once the ventile is soaked and slightly damp inside. It won't be enough to soak the wool shirt. Sorted. If I'm hill walking and won't be near an open fire I'd wear a shell of any "tex" with fleece under it. Synthetics are just more practical in a hillwalking environment from my experience. Dry faster and polar fleece has almost identical properties as wool except it's fire resistance.

 

[John Fenna]

A gore liner wouldn't breathe under a soaked ventile anyway, so you would still end up sweating in it, probably worse than with no liner at all.

Tonyuk

This is not my experience with garments that have a "drop liner" ie a waterproof breathable membrane attached only to the garments lining.
No matter how wettted out the outer fabric gets there will always be a partial air gap between the liner and the shell. This gap allows for some transpiration of water vapour (depending on the relative heat/moisture gradient as per all MVP's performance) helping reduce internal condensation.
However - I find that, even with soaked Ventile, if you are warm inside the garment and wear wool and/or linen layers under it then you will not get uncomfortable even if a little damp does make it's way in.
I accept that some folk are more fussed by a little damp than others but I have yet to get uncomfortable with this kind of layering... wearing cotton or synthetics under Ventile when it is thrashing down and I have always felt some cool damp unpleasantness if the Ventile does start to let in a bit (which it can with a real soaking - at seams and openings mainly).
I would always prefer natural fibres in my clothing systems as I find them much more comfortable and practical out in the woods.
I carry an Army Surplus waterproof poncho and some cheap overtrousers for extended wet weather outer layering but have not had to use them for over 2 years.... and I have stayed comfortable in all that time!

 

[acheter]

Probably worse than with no liner at all.

 

[Jaeger]

Aye Up,

Tiley/Rappelby,

I think that these may be the liners that you refer to - see images 1 & 2.

I picked a couple up several years back for only a few quid each! I've been using them under various jackets including one that I cut down to fit beneath a Keela water resistant fleece jacket. They seem to work OK depending on the work rate/breath-ability of the outer jacket. I've yet to try it beneath an Austrian woolly cardy!



Each,

Re Ventile - owned several, most issued, one purchased.

Comfy, quiet, water resistant, good abrasion resistance; spark resistant.
Cold when wet (it's cotton - like denim!); stiff when wet; limited colours; EXPENSIVE!

Experience -
Single layer - nice for dry weather;
Part double layer - nice for dry weather;
Double layer - nice for dry weather with the odd cloud;

Image 3 - Dorsal Arete Broad Gulley 1987. Double layered Ventile jackets (almost new).

Light rain at outset - jackets OK - light droplet beading on outer.
Rain turned heavier - jackets OK - outer layer wetting out (and presumably fibres expanding).
Rain turned to sleet then snow (with altitude) - no issues, outer quite wet and stiffening, inner remains dry despite exertion (assumed breath-ability working).
Over-nighted on tops - jackets left off folded in tent.
Next morning - jackets not just stiff as a board but starting to freeze! Remained cold even on wearing.



Other garments -
Early (course) Cordura and Goretex gaitors - hardly damp and easy to shake snow from;
Dachstein (woolen) mittens - wet and warm to start with (slept on top of) but warmed up quick once donned.

 

[Kilbith]

Under heavy rain it is a good idea to use a small synthetic.

Here SASS ventile like with small silnylon poncho : cover shoulder, possibly head (not here) and rucksack.

Here SASS ventile like with small orange rescue (head and shoulder, not rucksack). My friend had a gore liner (netherlands army) under his greenland fjallraven jacket.

 

[Herman30]

I have an NVA (East German Army) poncho that I shortened to waist length. It is totally waterproof and non-breathable but since it is open on the sides it does let air flow under it and ventilate. It can be snapped together on the sides so it doesn´t act like a sail in wind. Even in hard rain it keeps me dry down to the waist and even a small (10 liter) backpack fits underneath.
Folds down to be small enough to fit in a jacket pocket.
Seen here on top of a jacket:
jpg imagescertificity.com

 

[Readi24]

Ok lots of strange advice here. Ventile is great but .ot perfect. Plastic is 100% non breathable, gortex is only 22%, ventile 98%. But none will prevent sweating. I have wax, ventile and an expensive goretex. Stopped using the goretex after one year as it leaks. Wax is nice but sweaty, ventile going strong after 12 years but its a bit (double layered) heavy. Pros and cons to all.

 

[Kilbith]

Ok lots of strange advice here. Ventile is great but .ot perfect. Plastic is 100% non breathable, gortex is only 22%, ventile 98%. But none will prevent sweating. I have wax, ventile and an expensive goretex. Stopped using the goretex after one year as it leaks. Wax is nice but sweaty, ventile going strong after 12 years but its a bit (double layered) heavy. Pros and cons to all.

I agree with you : Life is not as simple as big company advertisement .

 

[IC_Rafe]

Ok lots of strange advice here. Ventile is great but .ot perfect. Plastic is 100% non breathable, gortex is only 22%, ventile 98%. But none will prevent sweating. I have wax, ventile and an expensive goretex. Stopped using the goretex after one year as it leaks. Wax is nice but sweaty, ventile going strong after 12 years but its a bit (double layered) heavy. Pros and cons to all.

You realize that goretex needs the DWR to be reapplied to ensure it stays nice and waterproof? Plastic is breathable depending on which fabric you're talking about and how it's constructed. Unless you think a fleece isn't breathable.