cheap CCF pad questions - foil vs thicker padding?

[-greenman-]

So this is part 2 in my saga of trying to get a sleeping kit together with almost no budget.
I was in Tesco earlier today and saw they were selling some nice, light, foil-backed CCF pads for £5 a pop.
I'm pretty tempted but they look very thin. I think I saw some (highlander?) pads for a similar price somewhere online which I'd imagine would be a little thicker but with no foil backing.

So my question is: Purely in terms of insulation, (not comfort or weight or anything like that) which would be better, thin but with foil backing or thicker but with no backing?

edit: Bonus question: would it make much of a difference to insulation or comfort if I bought 2 of the Tesco mats and put one on top of the other? and would I put both with the foil facing down or make some sort of sandwich for best results?

 

[Nice65]

I'd go thicker personally. I recently picked up a mat in the Blacks sale. I haven't slept on it yet, but it's very light, if a little bulky.

http://www.blacks.co.uk/activities/103112-multi-mat-comfort-xl-sleeping-mat-red.html

 

[C_Claycomb]

I suspect that there are two answers to your first question, the technically correct one, which won't be of much use, and the one that helps you with your sleep system. .

Foil returns heat to sender by reflecting radiated heat. Radiated heat happens when you are not touching the surface, so foil would need to be pointing at you to make any difference at all. Therefore, you only benefit from the foil on the topmost mat, the foil on the second mat will do nothing additional, beyond you having doubled up on the conductive insulation.

Not all foam is equal for insulation, so different thicknesses of mat, from different sources, made of different foam may not be an accurate measure of their insulation value. http://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/
In general though, thicker is warmer. There is going to be a point at which a thin foil faced mat is the same insulation as a thicker non-foil faced mat, but where that is will depend on the thickness of the pads and the kind of foam used. No way you will be able to guess it based on imagined thicknesses and looking at pictures on the net.

You can DIY foil facing with a mylar sheet.

Two pads are likely to be thicker, so more insulating, than one pad but its total thickness that matters, not whether there are two mats or just one, so how thick are the mats you are looking at? Keeping two pads on top of each other is likely to be annoying and may not work well.

What is your time worth? How much is analysis time worth? If you spend several hours deciding on which £5 mat to buy, have you really saved money?

If it was me, I would go for one pad, the thicker one, and keep an eye out for a cheap mylar blanket to try in the future. If you don't like that suggestion next best idea is to flip a coin

 

[Nohoval_Turrets]

A 7mm foam mat will cover you for basically anything but snow camping, and can be bought very cheaply. Thinner mats will do in Summer, but are less comfortable. They're also more fragile. The weight saving is not much, but bulk may be significant.

I'm skeptical of the value of foil on mats, but I don't know of anyone having done the relevant tests. I certainly haven't.

I'd say go with a decent thick foam mat, and it will keep you comfortable and warm all year.

 

[mrcharly]

Beg for some foil insulation from a building site

 

[petrochemicals]

I'll tell you what, all these types of sleep apperatus seem to be hard. I havnt. Tried a blanket but the air mats go hard due to your own weight pressurising it, foam mats start off hard and stay hard, and campbedt become hard from the tension. From recent experience a nice topper of 9 togs of quilt make all the difference in the world.

 

[IC_Rafe]

I'll tell you what, all these types of sleep apperatus seem to be hard. I havnt. Tried a blanket but the air mats go hard due to your own weight pressurising it, foam mats start off hard and stay hard, and campbedt become hard from the tension. From recent experience a nice topper of 9 togs of quilt make all the difference in the world.

There's a big difference between hard and hard though . A foam mat, will cause you to feel every bump since it just lays on there and doesn't provide much padding. An air mattress will be "hard", but will shape itself to you, and will shape itself to the ground a bit, giving you a pretty straight surface and good support. The self inflating mats are usually in between. I prefer the insulated thick air matrress.

 

[Bishop]

From an insulation standpoint the thicker 15mm type are better with more dead-air space than the thin foil backed mats so it could see use year round. The thinner ones by comparison are only just worth carrying for the summer months or gram counting masochists. If funds are really tight then cardboard would be a fairly good alternative as would polystyrene, both being foragable items in the bins of any good industrial estate.

Traditionalists of course would advocate making a browse bag just be sure to get permission from swmbo before accidentally swiping the best bed linen.

 

[Jared]

I'm skeptical of the foil ones too.

A space blanket works because it encapsulates you, keeping the heat in.

A foil covered sleeping mat doesn't surround you. So you heat up the foil, and it conducts out to where you're not lying on it and radiates out. Acting like a heatsink depending on how you use it.

 

[C_Claycomb]

The "foil" used on sleep mats isn't a good conductor, the amount of heat its is going to carry away laterally is negligible, shiny surfaces are poor emitters of radiation, and you must be a very slender chap, or have a really huge mat, 'cause there is rarely all that much pad sticking out from under most folk, once you factor in the sleeping bag or quilt they are using.

I too am sceptical, but that is because we lose most heat through a CCF pad to the ground through conduction, not radiation, so I don't think a radiant barrier under me is going to make a lot of difference. Thermarest NeoAirs are a different matter, they provide internal air space and use reflective baffles in order to help keep you warm.

If you encapsulated yourself in a space blanket so that it touched you everywhere, like mylar spandex, it would be cold! As well as very strange looking!! Those things rely upon a bit of an air gap.

 

[Toddy]

Iftwo thin ones work out at less than half the price of a thicker one, buy them and simply sew them together around the edges with garden twine.
It works to make padded cases to carry tilley and fuerhand lights

I bought thin ones in the end of season sales for 99p each.

Tbh, having grown up in the days when camping meant scraping out a shallow stone free bit for your hips and shoulders (unless on shingle, small shingle is surprisingly okay) any closed cell foam mat was a luxury. These days I have a down mat
but Himself still likes the CCF ones. Two of them is better than one, if you can manage the bulk, and two that don't slither around on each other is a very good thing.

The foiled ones ? only if the foil side is towards you. Otherwise it's easily knackered, and doesn't reflect any heat back at you at all. It's the insulation from the CCF bit that's important with these mats. I reckon the shiny foil is just to make them look 'technical'

M

 

[Alreetmiowdmuka]

You could try one of these.not massively expensive and might come with in your budget i have used one for years and slept out in all conditions with it.well worth that little bit extra.
http://www.facewest.co.uk/Thermares...aNMqJWvXjQpqA-9gJxnLatw-E97TJLJ3yPRoCNErw_wcB


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[petrochemicals]

There's a big difference between hard and hard though . A foam mat, will cause you to feel every bump since it just lays on there and doesn't provide much padding. An air mattress will be "hard", but will shape itself to you, and will shape itself to the ground a bit, giving you a pretty straight surface and good support. The self inflating mats are usually in between. I prefer the insulated thick air matrress.

I'll tell you what, the best thing I. Ever did was fasion myself a Trowell with along handle to clear the ground and level it. About 18 inches long you can hack the vegitation away and cut the lumps up in about 5 mins. Leave only your foot print, well mines about 6ft by 2 ft. (this is starting from a piece of ground that's fairly flat and level to begin with, the worse the ground the longer you'll be at it!) I know it may seem a bit much but the bature soon recovers. Most comfy nites that are not on a Heather bed I've had this way. I soon learned a bump in the back is terrible or a trough by your hips. It also comes in handy to dig a latrine fairly quickly.

 

[-greenman-]

Thanks for the replies everyone - lots of good ideas and info here

Alreetmiowdmuka - that looks really good, bit outside my (tiny) budget but maybe I'll just make do until I can save up a bit.

petrochemicals - Interesting idea, I'd rather not disturb the ground too much but I might well be carrying a trowel with me anyway so it's a thought

edit: after looking around, I've heard rumours of a 3/4 length version of the ridge rest, which would be ideal for saving money and space. no idea where to find one though, at least in the UK. any pointers?

 

[C_Claycomb]

Ah, the number of nights I sacrificed a good sleep in the names of money, space and weight using a 3/4 length Thermarest Classic!

Sorry, no idea where to get a "Small" RidgeRest in the UK.

For me, starting out with a 3/4 was not a good choice since I didn't have any of my other gear really dialled in and never figured out a gear combination that would lift my heels off the ground enough so my back didn't hurt, not so far that my knees hurt, and insulated enough that my feet didn't end up like blocks of ice by morning. I had more luck with a full length CCF pad than I did with the 3/4 self inflator.

 

[Big G]

As Chris says i think it a case of trial and error when first starting out, getting your sleep system right. I soon found out a CCF mat and 3/4 length brit army inflatable mat wasn't enough for a comfortable nights sleep for me. I can't get away with sleeping on a hard surface, getting up with my hips and back aching

I use a foil windscreen protector foil side up under my uninsulated Exped airmat, i swear it helps with the heat loss through the cold ground and boosts it a few degrees inside the tent.

 

[IC_Rafe]

I'll tell you what, the best thing I. Ever did was fasion myself a Trowell with along handle to clear the ground and level it. About 18 inches long you can hack the vegitation away and cut the lumps up in about 5 mins. Leave only your foot print, well mines about 6ft by 2 ft. (this is starting from a piece of ground that's fairly flat and level to begin with, the worse the ground the longer you'll be at it!) I know it may seem a bit much but the bature soon recovers. Most comfy nites that are not on a Heather bed I've had this way. I soon learned a bump in the back is terrible or a trough by your hips. It also comes in handy to dig a latrine fairly quickly.

I tend to try to leave no trace. I also can only legally visit certain zones for camping, which are used by other people too. The other zones i never visit or camp at ofcource . If the only sign i've been somewhere, is that the grass is a little bit flatter where i set up my tarp, i'm happy. Also the inflatable is lighter, warmer, less bulky and more comfortable than a thin foil or mat.

 

[Janne]

I would get the thickest one I could find. Small difference in weight, huge difference in comfort!

 

[Alreetmiowdmuka]

What's your budget for camping needs.lets see if we can help


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[Hammock_man]

At the risk of dragging the thread off course, I would say go with a hammock and a CCF mat. If that is not to be then be thick, be thicker or be thickest. While a thick mat can be (more than) a bit cumbersome it will give a much better nights sleep. Carry it for 8 hours, it is a pain for maybe 2. Sleep on it for 8 hours, it is working for 8 hours. I have not had much luck with using 2 mats together, staying together in the past.