The best quality light sleeping system for -20°C

[Andy BB]

I havent read all the posts but have seen wiggys mentioned. OMG!
Ive never experienced comfort like that! But I specifically bought it for a trip where -40 is likely.

Ive also got a Rab bag, rated -5C, which I would pair with my jervens king size bag, which would keep me warm at -20C.

And it'll keep me warm worn as a mothership jacket, and used as a bivi in the arctic. Or sitting on a cold wet hill in scotland....

When sleeping my clothing layers would also differ.

Plus theyre just freakin cool.

Yup - My Jervens king-size I also regard as my emergency option if something goes wrong in sub-zero temps. Crawl in , zip up and wait for rescue all nice and snug! Only problem is that, because the outer "skin" is totally waterproof, you will get condensation on the lining, which needs managing.

 

[cbr6fs]

Re that video, a couple of points stood out for me. Firstly that the bag was soaked inside as well as out, and secondly that in the morning he - and the bag - was completely dry. So clearly the bag surface material was not acting as a water barrier. In temps down to -20C, I've had my Wiggys bag completely dry inside, but a thick layer of frost on the outside in the morning. Presumably the couple of pints everyone sweats overnight had passed through the bag and frozen immediately on contact with the outside air. (the bag I was using was a wiggys superlight, with a stated temp rating of 0F = -18C. And despite - stupidly - sleeping on a luxurylite mesh cot (which meant an airgap underneath me which is definitely not recommended in subzero temps!) I was warm all night. Although if anyone was heading towards, or below, -20C temps I'd recommend the Ultima Thule.

Re down, I've had a number of down bags in the past (and still have one - a Valandri Lhotse 1100 - luvverly). And yes, they are light, very comfy and warm when clean. But the "sweat" thing means they need airing effectively daily, which is not always possible. Furthermore, the night sweats, miscellaneous body oils etc mean the down gradually gets dirty, which damages the loft and associated warmth. Which means washing the bag frequently to retain the loft. And you can't just toss it in the washing machine like you can the Wiggys. Or store it in a compression sac.

Weight is an interesting one. Clearly, down wins the weight/temp competition. But synthetic? Having had a variety of quality synthetic bags in the past, I just don't believe most of their temp claims - if you take 10C off most claims you'll be about right. From a "book" comparison, Wiggy bags tend to be a bit heavier than the opposition synthetic bags making similar temp claims. Difference is that Wiggy's temps seem pretty accurate. so you're not comparing like with like. The old adage "carry light, sleep cold" might be worth considering!

There is one type of sleeping bag that hasn't been covered yet - the Buffalo bag systems, using fibre-pile as a lining. I've had these in the past, and they are a real option to other synthetic bags. You'll need at least two bags together to face serious sub-zero temps, but that does give you flexibility in warmer weather as well.

Hmmmmmmmm not convinced mate.
If you look at the vid and specifically at how much water is inside the bag there really is not that much compared to the surface area.
I've gone to bed in wet clothes that i'm sure would have given more water than was inside the bag if squeezed, both the bag and my clothes were all dry in the morning.

I've never camped and never will at -20c so i trust your opinion on that, but i've been using down bags for years and i've never yet aired one out.
I've got a old down bag from around 1994, it's never been washed (use a linear) and it's still as warm as the day i bought it or close enough that i can't tell the difference.
Been using down quilts on my beds since as far back as i can remember, even with nightly use they don't really lose any warmth over say 1 year from sweat and oils.
I do wash them every year, but i've never aired them out either.
So i think you are over thinking the amount of washing needed and the amount of sweat and body oils.

I think it's a case of choosing the right tool for the job.
If your doing water based activities or the budget is tight and pack size and weight aren't a priority synthetic rules.
Size and weight for warmth you'll not beat down, the better the down you get the lighter and smaller it packs as well.

Last thing is DWR coated down is getting popular with a lot of manufacturers these days, can't say as i've looked into it as for me it's not needed, but if it works that's another nail in the coffin for synthetic bags, only thing they'll have going for them then is price.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Some thoughts on temp ratings.

For years manufacturers claimed their bags could do amazing things, with one manufacturer claiming their 1.5kg synthetic bag would keep you warm to -10°C, and another claiming their 1.5kg synthetic bag would only goto -5°C, when the reality was both of them were only really good to 0°C. Then you hit the fact that what is a -10°C bag to the blokes is a -4°C bag to women.

Fortunately, a standard - EN 13537 has been developed meaning that (in theory), if manufacturer A tests their bags to the standard and it says -10°C, and manufacturer B tests their bag to standard and it says -10°C, then you should be able to trust that they are both pretty much equal in warmth. The standard also takes into account the difference between Female and Male physiology, with the T-Comfort, T-Limit and T-Extreme basically being "Womens rating", "Mens rating" and "a woman will survive the night, but may have frostbite rating".

It's for this reason that I have given up on manufacturers that don't test their bags to the same standard. I can't risk forking out several months of savings on a bag that in the end, isn't warm enough

I would be interested to see how the wiggy's bags rate when put through the EN 13537 test[1]. That said, they appear to weight a ton, and have serious bulk! I am currently saving up for a new bag (rated to about 0°C) as I my current winter bag - Snugpak SF2 - Is just too bulky. It fills a 20L dry bag, and only fits in that if I sit on it. Given I have a 30L pack, that doesn't leave me much room for anything else... Current shopping list has the Lamina 35 bag from Mountain Hardware, it's rated to 2°C, so should be good enough for my needs. But crucially, it's only about 6L in volume. Tho this is taking things a bit OT of the OP's original question.

Julia


[1]My brief look through the site found no mention of it, so if they all ready are tested to it, I am ready to be impressed

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Oh, a quick point re down vs synthetic. At -20°C You aren't really going to be finding much water. The only real moisture will be coming from your body - queue discussion of Vapour Barrier liners. The dry conditions should mean that a down bag should be fine, esp given the modern down with it's various moisture protection measures.

Now, if only someone made a down bag with a centre zip, decent hood, neck baffle, an EN 13537 T-Comfort rating of -20°C, all for under 1.5kg, and without costing the GDP of Ghana...

Julia

 

[bert333]

Woops nothing to see!

 

[peter_]

Oh, a quick point re down vs synthetic. At -20°C You aren't really going to be finding much water. The only real moisture will be coming from your body - queue discussion of Vapour Barrier liners. The dry conditions should mean that a down bag should be fine, esp given the modern down with it's various moisture protection measures.

Now, if only someone made a down bag with a centre zip, decent hood, neck baffle, an EN 13537 T-Comfort rating of -20°C, all for under 1.5kg, and without costing the GDP of Ghana...

Julia

I read these days about sleeping bags and their properties. One thing is sure, down bags is very light, long term and fill will not degraded very long time and they are warm if not dump or wet. For backpacking because of that is ideal bags. Good synthetic bags on the other hand is very though and durable for many kind of field applications, military, hunting, rescue team, wet or humid environment, etc.

One thing with wiggy's bags is that, they are or should be exact warm if not warmer of given specifications. This is something what users in big majority writing on forums. But because of bulkiness or weight it is not popular among ultralight or light backpackers. This is something what I noticed about this bags on what others said about them...

 

[Phaestos]

Just to put my two pennies in here, and they are very inexperienced pennies, I've used Snugpak for synthetics, Alpkit for Down and currently have a Wiggy's ready to go for Finland this year.

I'm fairly sure Snugpak overrate their bags temperature ratings. This isn't to say I don't like them, but I have found the chill beginning to permeate through the bag when it approaches 0 Degrees C, when my bag is comfort rated to -5 Degrees C. I love the bag, both for the relative lack of bulk, and a fairly low weight. Added to this, I've now had two British Army bivi bags fail on me (one time I awoke to find myself tangled in the seam tape!). Both times I have only noticed that my sleeping bag is wet after I pulled it out of the bivi bag. Last weekend the foot of my bivi bag leaked water into over an entire night of abysmal weather. I had removed my sleeping socks because the temperature was higher than I had anticipated, and still wasn't even slightly aware of the moisture till I packed away the next morning. Moreover, when I previously used the Snugpak Antarctica RE last year in Finland, in a bivi bag that was so unbreathable in those temperatures as to having the dry the inside of it over the fire, the bag kept me warm for a the whole week, despite having alot of residual moisture in it. I can easily imagine that in both situations down insulation would have been royally scuppered.

My short stint with Alpkit didn't reveal much as I soon moved it on to someone else, but I definitely noticed a drop in temperature rating after a night of heavy sweating. I aired the bag out all day, and found it to be far less warm the following night. Of course, this could easily have been a factor of food and energy as I'm a fairly variable sleeper (although leaning towards hot). I'd love a down bag for weight and bulk, but I'm very cautious of it.

As for the Wiggys (an Antarctica lent to me by Gray), I've had about 20 minutes in it one chilly night before I had to switch back to my Snugpak. It was so ridiculously warm. I only lasted the 20 minutes because it was so comfortable. It acted like a duvet, draping across the body. If bulk were not an issue I'd be more than tempted to buy my own and cart it everywhere. I'll know more after January, but for now I'm fairly certain it would see me comfortably to very cold temperatures.

I think if you wanted reliable warmth, I'd go synthetic (or a dual bag system with a mixture of synthetic and down), and I'd lean towards Wiggy's for comfort.

 

[Dogoak]

Other factors you need to consider are your age, fitness level and what clothing you will be wearing, if any, inside the bag.

 

[Goatboy]

Like dogoak says a lot can depend on your fitness, how tired you are, age and sex. Also don't get into a bag when you're cold. If you do you'll stay cold for ages. Run about a bit, play hacky sack for 10 mins, something to raise your body temperature. A bag only traps heat you give off and if you get in cold your body pulls blood away from your extremities and you'll have cold feet and hands. Also a sugary hot drink will help warm you up and give you some quick burn energy to expend on heating yourself.
Another trick is a hot water bottle. You don't have to take a big rubber jobby, something like a Nalgene bottle filled with boiling water and placed in a sock so you don't burn yourself, will preheat the bag and keep you toasty for hours. It also means you have liquid water in the morning to make breakfast easier. Rather than having to melt snow/ice so making for a quicker getaway on those short winter days.

 

[Teepee]

As above, +2, you weight, size, age, fitness, sleep clothing, metabolism and sensitivity to the cold are factors. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for others. For intance, I like sleeping clothed. I like to exit my pit to take a leak, not pee in a bottle. Keeping clothes on lets me nip out in comfort.

If you want quality lightweight sleeping bags, goose down filling is the leader. Western Mountaineering, Feathered friends, PHD and Montbell are the cream of the crop for quality IME and will be reasonably accurate for their average temp rating. Again, this can only be used as rough guide.

I use down and synthetic, I'll pack to suit the trip.

For deep cold, I generally use my well trusted Wiggys bag. (Ultima thule, FTRSS overbag for warmer conditions) I like the security it offers as it removes the need for using vapour barrier liners and it breathes so well, damp clothes can be dried out in the bag. It's not a lightweight option though and doesn't pack down small. Wiggys use Climashield Combat wadding which is an old style monofilament fibre, silicone coated to encourage the water vapour not to condense on the fibres. It works very well.

 

[peter_]

Thanks to all for your suggestions and for sharing experience with your sleeping systems. I think I made my decision and my bag will be one of this Wiggy's bags:

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=278 (FTRSS system)

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=64 (FTRSS system)

Once again, thanks to all!

 

[cbr6fs]

Other factors you need to consider are your age, fitness level and what clothing you will be wearing, if any, inside the bag.

Also the mat you use under the sleeping bag makes a MASSIVE difference.

There are also lots of other things that make a smaller difference, how tired you are, the type of shelter.
I've even noticed the type of ground you sleep on makes a difference as well.

 

[peter_]

Also the mat you use under the sleeping bag makes a MASSIVE difference.

There are also lots of other things that make a smaller difference, how tired you are, the type of shelter.
I've even noticed the type of ground you sleep on makes a difference as well.

Of course, I think that exped downmat 9 will be fine... Tent will be tipi style with stove, but through the night the stove will not be lift. I'm in pretty good shape, my workout is with weights not for bodybuilding but for strength and endurance and I walk on regular basis about 8-10km... And when I have time I go in the mountain.

 

[Old Bones]

The best value you are going to get is the Rab 900 - down bag, and reckons minus 18-19 , and there is a comparison guide by Alpkit here: https://www.alpkit.com/sleeping-bags/compare

Currently in Go Outdoors for around £240, and I did see it some months ago for £165. Down packs much smaller than synthetic, so its around 1.5kg, plus sack. Trekitt has them for £229.50 http://www.trekitt.co.uk/6887/produ...currency=GBP&gclid=CJbM0rjiw8ICFRHHtAodWGYAhQ

The Snugpak Antartic RE is £189.95, reckons minus 20 as comfort (although since I have a Snugpak, I'd take that with a pinch of salt), but weighs 2.8kg with sack!

 

[Gray]

I'm in love with the USMSS. ok,,its not exactly light and its pretty bulky but its a year round system thats big and bombproof and toasty warm. The bivi bag is brilliant, it really does breath but then it has to as its designed to go over the head and totally enclose the user.

 

[peter_]

The best value you are going to get is the Rab 900 - down bag, and reckons minus 18-19 , and there is a comparison guide by Alpkit here: https://www.alpkit.com/sleeping-bags/compare

Currently in Go Outdoors for around £240, and I did see it some months ago for £165. Down packs much smaller than synthetic, so its around 1.5kg, plus sack. Trekitt has them for £229.50 http://www.trekitt.co.uk/6887/produ...currency=GBP&gclid=CJbM0rjiw8ICFRHHtAodWGYAhQ

The Snugpak Antartic RE is £189.95, reckons minus 20 as comfort (although since I have a Snugpak, I'd take that with a pinch of salt), but weighs 2.8kg with sack!

I know that down bags are lighter and smaller... But with synthetic bag I can get more security and easier handling... But quality down bag will last for years without any problem... So... if people have those wyggi's bags or some others, e.g. from some scandinavian brands which I read about in this days, maybe it is not bad solutions...

I know for few brands from which down bags are of good quality, Feather friends, Western Mountaineering from USA and from Europe: Rab, Marmot, Mamut, Helsport, Snugpak, etc. I don't know which brand have the best synthetic bags in Europe...?

 

[peter_]

I'm in love with the USMSS. ok,,its not exactly light and its pretty bulky but its a year round system thats big and bombproof and toasty warm. The bivi bag is brilliant, it really does breath but then it has to as its designed to go over the head and totally enclose the user.

I know that many people go out with USMSS and they are very happy with such sleeping system. But I will try to find something similar and little smaller...

 

[peter_]

Which brand makes better down bags: Feather Friends, Western Mountaineering or PHD?

 

[Teepee]

IMHO, they are much the same quality. I'd add Montbell to that list too.

 

[Andy BB]

Valandre http://www.valandre.com/eng/Sleeping_Bags_and_Outerwear/sleeping_bags/thor.html