Atlatl

[Blundstoned Love]

I think that's how it's spelt.

There's a programme on Discovery History TV channel [not the History Channel - that's confused me in the past] called Weapon Masters.

The basic premise is to remake an historic weapon and improve it.

The presenter is v v annoying - even though I only watched the last 1/2 of tonight's programme it was almost too much.

On the plus side it has a British guy - weapons expert - who I've seen on telly a lot before and is very good - his name escapes me.

Anyway tomorrow the weapon us the Atlatl.

It's on at 6.

I'll probaly watch it with the sound off.

 

[atlatlman]

I think you are talking about atlatl Bob.

 

[David Morningstar]

Atlatls are great fun and very easy to get into. You need enough flexibility in your dart or you won't hit the broad side of a barn. 2 meters of 12mm pine dowel with a half inch bodkin arrow point and fletching about eight inches long is a good size.

 

[boatman]

That comment about flexibility is interesting because some of the African throwing assegais were said to be vibrated (quivered) in the hand before being thrown. I wonder if this flexing is supposed to act like rifling in cancelling out any yawing tendency of the missile because of uneven weighting or aerodynamics.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=assegai throwing&f=false

Reconstructed historical javelin throwing with an ankyle or cord is fun and I find it gives more distance and accuracy than throwing from the hand but the javelin does not vibrate but it might rotate from the action of the cord if the cord is wrapped round the shaft.

 

[David Morningstar]

This is a view of the kind of flexibility you need in your dart/spear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YOHsKyP3YY

On the subject of javelins, all the archeological javelin heads I have been able to see have very narrow sockets, about half an inch. This implies quite a bit of flexibility and an extremely forward point of balance. The broomstick spearheads you can buy for re-enactment are very different.

This guy is a really good spear thrower and I think it is no coincidence that there is a lot of flex in his shaft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmLz_sCmp0

I suspect that the flex absorbs off-axis forces from the throw into vibration instead of the cartwheeling you so often get with the hand-thrown spear.

I have done some javelin throwing with the amentum and it makes quite a difference.

European style fixed amentum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmPSKu6-TMM

Pacific style detaching amentum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCDobXr9Gg

It goes faster and further getting more power from wrist leverage. You can also throw from an open palm using only the loop to transmit the throw to the spear, this eliminates much of the off-axis force and results in a straighter throw.

 

[fishfish]

heres my son jack using an atlatl dart made by mr morningstar,you can see the flex as the power is increased:

jack does Atlatl throwing at home by fishfish_01, on Flickr

 

[HillBill]

Any form of hand thrown projectile, be it atlatl, spear etc should have the weight and point of balance a third of the way along the shaft from the tip. Man knew this before he knew how to light fire. Now it seems the knowledge is uncommon. Any atlatl dart or throwing spear should be made like this. Makes a HUGE difference to performance. You get no cartwheeling etc, and the comment above which says that javelin heads have narrow sockets does not imply that the shaft was narrow, only that the tip was. The shaft would widen upto a third of its length, then taper off towards the rear of the shaft.

 

[boatman]

This is a view of the kind of flexibility you need in your dart/spear:

n the subject of javelins, all the archeological javelin heads I have been able to see have very narrow sockets, about half an inch. This implies quite a bit of flexibility and an extremely forward point of balance. The broomstick spearheads you can buy for re-enactment are very different.

My javelins are thin with blacksmith made wrought iron copies of Roman javelin heads and throw well with the ankyle. The javelin in the clip doesn't seem to flex and appears to be straight.

 

[boatman]

Just realised I have met him, he showed methods of slinging at Butser Iron Age Farm.

 

[David Morningstar]

My javelins are thin with blacksmith made wrought iron copies of Roman javelin heads and throw well with the ankyle. The javelin in the clip doesn't seem to flex and appears to be straight.

The javelin I am throwing in my amentum videos is just a broomstick with a big iron point, it has no flex. The shaft has snapped twice right behind the socket, so that is possibly another reason to go with a flexible shaft.

 

[dwardo]

I was told by a friend that the atlatl "thrower bit" for want of a better term should also be flexing storing mroe energy again.
Also both chucker stick and spear are tuned to each other in the same way a bow and its arrows are tuned to each other (spine V draw weight and length)

We have forgotten more than we know about these things, thats farming for ya.

 

[Bucephalas]

George has a weakness for the Atlatl.
Check out his block http://www.bushcraftdays.com/how-to-carve-a-lovelock-cave-atlatl

 

[boatman]

I hope I am not wandering too far off topic but I find the contrast between penetration with a throw and a thrust interesting. I wonder if it is partially that the throw gets more penetration because one has to put enough energy into it for it to move through the air while with a thrust one is somehow inhibited from putting as much energy into it. Of course in reenactment fighting with the spear one, hopefully, controls the force of the thrust to avoid injury.

 

[David Morningstar]

I was told by a friend that the atlatl "thrower bit" for want of a better term should also be flexing storing mroe energy again.
Also both chucker stick and spear are tuned to each other in the same way a bow and its arrows are tuned to each other (spine V draw weight and length)

All that 'flexible atlatls store and release spring energy' stuff comes from Bob Perkins. With all due respect (he is an excellent thrower after all) I think he is talking rhubarb. The forces during a throw are between five and ten pounds, depending on the stiffness of the dart. The atlatl will flex up to two inches under this load. 10# at 2" is a trivial amount of power. Compare this to the 40# at 26" which would be considered a decent floor level for a hunting bow. Compare this also to an atlatl dart thrown by a simple rigid atlatl, and the massive target damage this causes. I have thrown with excellent quality replicas of flexible atlatls and matching darts copied from the original artefacts by an American guy who specializes in the Basketmaker culture, and they dont throw any harder or faster than my rigid atlatls.

You should also note that these flexible atlatls only existed for a brief period in the south west United States. Other atlatls from North America, such as Ozark Bluff or Nicholarson Cave or all the Arctic cultures are not flexible. All South American atlatls are not flexible. There are no other examples of flexible atlatls elsewhere in the world.

The Nicholarson Cave atlatl has a rigid shaft and an atlatl weight. The purpose of the weight is to counterbalance the weight of the dart and bring the loaded dart/atlatl system into balance in the hand. This greatly reduces the wrist fatigue when holding the weapon ready for an extended period, e.g. while a prey animal approaches along a game trail towards your hunting blind. You can make your atlatl heavy enough to do this without needing an extra weight, but the separate weight allows you to adjust the balance for different sizes of dart.

 

[dwardo]

Very interesting thanks David.

 

[HarrogateTobias]

Here are some vids from very good youtube channel

[video=youtube;QQQ8u5eqwXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQQ8u5eqwXc[/video]

part two:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgkyxY6lmRo
part three:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfOMQqM8ytM
part four:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsW7ERQHHJQ
part five:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaFfOhouSls

 

[mark stotesbury]

That comment about flexibility is interesting because some of the African throwing assegais were said to be vibrated (quivered) in the hand before being thrown. I wonder if this flexing is supposed to act like rifling in cancelling out any yawing tendency of the missile because of uneven weighting or aerodynamics.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=assegai throwing&f=false

Reconstructed historical javelin throwing with an ankyle or cord is fun and I find it gives more distance and accuracy than throwing from the hand but the javelin does not vibrate but it might rotate from the action of the cord if the cord is wrapped round the shaft.

Not to be anal but an assegai is a short stabbing spear thats not meant to be thrown , the trees wood that the shaft is made from is heavy and dense will def not flex .

 

[atlatlman]

Not to be anal but an assegai is a short stabbing spear thats not meant to be thrown , the trees wood that the shaft is made from is heavy and dense will def not flex .

The short version was called a iklwa which was used for stabbing. The assegai was thrown.