Ideas Please

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Les Marshall

Life Member
Jan 21, 2004
174
1
67
Chichester West Sussex
Can anyone suggest a way that I can produce fire by friction, bearing in mind that I have a long standing problem with my shoulders that prevents me from using a fire drill for too long and the same for a hand drill. I would really like to be able to do this but can live with always haveing to use sparks.
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
25
65
London
I second Jeff's suggestion. It is good to illustrate the principle if not true to low tech principles.

However, I have sometimes thought that it is a shame that we haven't got a method that uses all the muscle power of our legs, which are much stronger than our arms, but less control.

Having said that an image is coming to me of a foot powered pole lathe

Pole%20lathe.jpg



Has anyone experience of using a pole lathe to make fire by friction?
 
Thanks for that photo Richard. Thats a wonderful reminder of low tech primitive ingenuity. With sufficient force applied from the end of the spindle and some means for holding a hearthboard I see no reason why one could not make a coal using this contraction. The dust pile would simply form below the spindle.

As for alternative human powered methods I should make mention of the two person, cord and spindle technique. This past summer I watched a young girl about 11 years old make her first ever fire by friction using this technique. The set up is essentially the same as with the bow drill, except there is no bow. Person "A" holds the spindle / hearthboard / socket while person "B" grasps the ends of the cord ends and causes the spidle to turn by making a back and forth see saw motion of their arms. By sitting with the legs in a V shape and with the feet braced against the partner results in more force with reduced fatigue. With a bit of creativity for holding the spindle assembly I suspect it would be possible for a single person to slip loops of a longer cord over the feet and drive the spindle using a bike pedaling motion.
 

Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
990
12
59
South Northants
You could always look at an alternative version of the pole lathe. A vertical or horizontal pole would allow the use of a vertical drill, operated by a foot treadle. Bearing pressure could still be applied with the hands or with a headstock/tailstock arrangement like on the lathe. The whole setup might be a little cumbersome to build "on the spot" out in the woods, but it would make an interesting project.
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
729
41
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
Longstrider said:
You could always look at an alternative version of the pole lathe.

Excellent thread!

about a year ago, on a holiday stroll in the woods with my family we came across a one inch thick root sticking horizontally out just a few inch above the ground. When I stepped upon it proved to be very springy and both my daughters (2 & 3 years old at the time) found it a useful thing to play upon. When we walked back to the car it suddenly hit me that it was a perfect set-up for a bowless firedrill. Just a heart, a drill, a bearing block & some string attached to the root would suffice. I never tried it out because the next day we were driving home (and anyway, up till that time I never had managed to produce a coal with the bowdrill) Since then, when I am walking in the woods, I am constantly on the lookout for the same arrangement. Not found it yet but eventually I will. So someday in the near future I'll hope to post my experiences here.

Tom
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
25
65
London
OK. Here is an initial description of a possible foot powered drill. Tie the cordage between two well rooted, flexible bushes - positioning the ropes to attach to branches that bend but springs back, one at least should be attached to a branch coming up from the roots. Place foot with heel against ground and ball of foot on lower part of branch with rope attached. Press with foot to move the branch and the rope should be pulled and bend the other bush too. When you pull you foot back the rope should be pulled back the other way. Then set up your drill, with the rope wrapped round the drill, so you can control the top piece, drill and hearthboard - possibly while reclining, or perhaps sitting and using a longish drill (1-2 feet in length)

Can't wait to try it.
 

cronos

Tenderfoot
Nov 6, 2005
52
3
54
Norfolk
Really good thread.

Well this is a picture of a project that I was thinking about, but yet to finish. Basically it comprises of a fire hearth board, ember collection board, a roller, couple of pieces of cordage and a bearing block. The idea is that a hearth board is placed into the ground like a peg and attached to this is a collection board. The friction roller is then inserted into its recess and secured by the bearing block, which is also mounted into the ground like a peg. Across the top of the structure is a piece of cordage which acts as a brace to adjust the amount of pressure imposed onto the roller. Finally a cord is wrapped around the roller and pulled in a saw like motion up and down.
firelathe.jpg

It is most probably a pipe dream, but it’s worth a try.

Cronos
 

Nemisis

Settler
Nov 20, 2005
604
6
69
Staffordshire
What about combining the two ideas? Cronos rig with spinning cord tied to a springy bush/branch the other to a board log set at about 45 degrees pressing down on this log with the foot making the spindle spin?
Dave.
 

cronos

Tenderfoot
Nov 6, 2005
52
3
54
Norfolk
Nemisis said:
What about combining the two ideas? Cronos rig with spinning cord tied to a springy bush/branch the other to a board log set at about 45 degrees pressing down on this log with the foot making the spindle spin?
Dave.

OK I was never one for drawing and never will, but I hope that this is similar to what Dave ment. Yeah its not to scale, but I think I get the idea that Dave was on about.

firelathe02.jpg


Cronos
 

Nemisis

Settler
Nov 20, 2005
604
6
69
Staffordshire
I think its a great idea and buildable in the field two branches pointed at one end pushed into the ground the spindle fitted and tensioned with the cord as you've done in the picture a groove with a saw to fit a small catching board to each branch that way doubling your chances of an ember with the same amount of effort.
Dave.
 

rich59

Maker
Aug 28, 2005
2,217
25
65
London
As a trial of my 2 bushes idea I could probably change one bush for a bungie (attached to something solid) and the other for a flat plank used like an accelerator pedal.

.................cordage.............................................bungie
\\_________________________ <------------------------------->
.\\
..\\
...\\ < foot pressure
....\\
.....\\
 

cronos

Tenderfoot
Nov 6, 2005
52
3
54
Norfolk
rich59 said:
As a trial of my 2 bushes idea I could probably change one bush for a bungie (attached to something solid) and the other for a flat plank used like an accelerator pedal.

I do like the sound of this, using a bungee to provide the reaction to your actions.
I may try this when i sort out my design.

Cronos
 

Glen

Life Member
Oct 16, 2005
618
1
60
London
Les Marshall said:
Can anyone suggest a way that I can produce fire by friction, bearing in mind that I have a long standing problem with my shoulders that prevents me from using a fire drill for too long and the same for a hand drill. I would really like to be able to do this but can live with always haveing to use sparks.

you might like to exp[eriment with the method I've come up with here
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=19024&highlight=bowless

I found the thread while trying to find if anyone else had come up with a bowless method ( other than handdrill )

It's very much like Chonos's set up, only holding the end pieces together with your feet and wrapping the cord a couple of times around the spindle, with a long cord it can be done standing straight up.

Should be easier on your shoulders as all the effort can come from the biceps bending the forearms.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,937
4,570
S. Lanarkshire
How about a pump drill? They're quick, effective and if you make it small it can be done one handed.
I'm sure someone posted a link to a competition to see just how small they could be made and still be effective.

cheers,
Toddy
 

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