Bushcraft PLCE webbing
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SimonM
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I won't wear webbing for the woods, but I do have a Maxpedition Sabrecat...
...think oversized Response Pak
Very comfy, not military looking and easy to organise.
Simon
...think oversized Response Pak
Very comfy, not military looking and easy to organise.
Simon
Well, I guess I of explanied this better, Im just trying this kit out for now and I'll change to a sleeka force 35 rucksack if im going to be walking any sort of distance or id get the all-arms bergen if i had alot of gear and was taking a vehicle then i could just chuck it in the back but for now this suits me best.
yes, I do have ALICE clips on the pouches but they are very difficult to open, not very spingy any more and all they do now is slide back opening the channel
but thanks for the suggestion
I found that the Russian made ALICE type clips for there web system are better made than the American version(or at least where about 8 yrs ago when i had a set of Russian webbing)
they're just phasing out the alice style clips atm. their high end smersh rig is now all molle'd out!!
never thought the ruskies would move so fast in the military department!
its damnebly expensive commercialy too. (tsk)
still alot of webbing setups are very comfy and its true that if you wear em right you practically don't feel the weight of what your carrying around.
i'm actually in the process of modding my 66l highlander with molle. basically removing the two 2.5l side pouches and stitching 1" webbing in a grid pattern down each side.
i should be able to web on anything from spare pouches to water carriers to just plain tie on kit.
decided against the front of the pack, i don't want to tilt the centre of gravity to far back.
if anyone wants to know how to stitch molle webbing take a look at this link:
http://www.98og.net/vests-packs/116-how-sew-milspec-molle.html
thats basic tbh but works a treat
never thought the ruskies would move so fast in the military department!its damnebly expensive commercialy too. (tsk)
still alot of webbing setups are very comfy and its true that if you wear em right you practically don't feel the weight of what your carrying around.
i'm actually in the process of modding my 66l highlander with molle. basically removing the two 2.5l side pouches and stitching 1" webbing in a grid pattern down each side.
i should be able to web on anything from spare pouches to water carriers to just plain tie on kit.
decided against the front of the pack, i don't want to tilt the centre of gravity to far back.
if anyone wants to know how to stitch molle webbing take a look at this link:
http://www.98og.net/vests-packs/116-how-sew-milspec-molle.html
thats basic tbh but works a treat
Your example of builders and police officers is an interesting comparison. A builder with a tool belt is using that to allow access to tools immediately. The kit he needs is to hand and immediate access to his tools allows him to work more efficiently. Time is money in building. Similarly a Police officer needs to be able to access his: hand cuffs, pepper spray, radio, truncheon/ nightstick etc in a ready manner so its accessible in say an arrest situation.
A soldier carries the kit needed to keep him fighting and keep his weapon firing in his webbing. This kit needs to be to hand and readily available no stopping mid fire fight to grab more magazines out of his Bergen.
Forgetting for a moment the potential social stigma of wearing webbing or belt kit in a non military context and looking like Rambo or an army wannabe and also forgetting the potential perceptions of the general public .. The arguments for seem to centre on easy or instant access to kit and the ability to organise kit more efficiently .
The question Id ask is as a Bush Crafter in the UK do you really need such instant and ready access to kit more so than dipping into a well organized Daysack? To me need for such ready access is not well founded, let me explain.
For example if Im a policeman and cannot get to my pepper spray during an arrest I might get injured. If Im a soldier and cannot get instant access to change a magazine or deploy a Grenade in a fire fight then I might get wounded.
If Im a UK Bush Crafter and I cannot get instant access to my 550 cord or brew kit Id venture to suggest its unlikely the world will end
Im not particularly convinced by the argument that A Daysack cannot be well organised or as organised as webbing. If you pick a model such as say the Berghaus Dart 35 with 2 side pockets a lid pocket and the main compartment then Id say you have ample storage compartments to organize you kit. Further subdividing it down into small stuff sacks (perhaps colour coded) helps you get your hands on what you want when you need it. In a lot of years of using a daysack Ive never found access to kit to ever be an issue.
So perhaps in the normal course of events as UK Bush Crafters you dont really need super quick instant access to your bushcraft kit and probably a Daysack can be well organised with a bit of thought and selection of a good Daysack to begin with.
Then the perceived advantages for webbing are somewhat negated..
As an aside in 5 years of Outdoor instructing here in NZ Ive only had 2 people attend courses with webbing both were from the UK and both were male in the 25-35 year old age bracket.
One client turned up to a Bushcraft course with a full set of 90 pattern PLCE no rucksack of any type and bits of kit hanging off the webbing like a gypsys caravan.
When I politely suggested that perhaps hed be better off using a spare Bergen we had I was advised somewhat aggressively that hed used it all the time in the UK .
His kit got soaked through in short order and he ended up borrowing my sleeping bag for the duration of the course.
The other client attended a Snow craft course with an operational waistcoat in DPM again with bits of kit stuffed in every pouch and no Rucksack of any type. When I asked him where he was going to carry the ice axe and crampons we were issuing him with. He shrugged his shoulders. He ended up using our spare Bergen.
I'm not suggesting that all who wear webbing outside of the Military /police are as 'challenged' as these guys were. However kit has to be appropriate to task.
I dont think your comparison between camo clothing usage and webbing is a good one.
Builders and farm workers generally wear camo clothing as its cheap and hardwearing. If it was plain green or black and met the criteria of being cheap and hardwearing Id suspect it would be used just as much.
Say youre working on a building site with a yellow hard hat, jeans and an 85 pattern combat jacket covered in cement. People will look at you and think there is a builder. The context the kit is worn in is appropriate for the situation. Old hardwearing combat jacket makes perfect sense on a building site or on a tractor.
Now say youre dressed in neutral green tones with a full set of webbing pouches in a bit of woodland thats not an Army Training area the perception of you is likely to be that youre probably not a Squaddie and likely to be a bit of a weirdo or army wannabe Rightly or wrongly I believe that would be the opinion of most of the Public in the UK. Same bit of woodland same green kit but replace the webbing with a Daysack.. Joe publics perception is likely to be entirely different.
My considered view therefore is if Webbing offers no real world advantage to a Daysack in terms of storage or access to kit but comes with a whole bunch of social stigma issues that might adversely impact on my enjoyment of my time in the woods. Id have to say Id be using a Daysack every time However each to his own and please do not take this as a personal attack on your kit or decision to wear webbing..
By the way this is the webbing I use:
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It's comfy, easy to change, fix, and comfy when used with a rucksack! I love it!!
(yes, they are real SAS, 44", and 58" pouches (apart from the smallest))
,
What I'm saying is it's easier to get to kit "if" you needed it quickly (with one hand, in the dark, etc etc) than if it was in the bottom of a daysack full of smaller bags .
Even if the stuff is subdivided into different coloured bags etc, that's no good to anyone in the dark,and you still need to take it off.
but it's what I'd do if i was in mountain conditions.
On my belt kit/webbing the kit I may need quickly (tools, first aid, torch, notepad, whistle compass) are all in my front pouches, lesser needed kit i.e. cooking gear is at the back. water bottles are at the side and can be reached with either hands.
Most of the time you need your hands free for climbing/map reading.
I don't carry the same gear as when I'm Bushcrafting. I have mountain gear all of which is lighter packs smaller, fuel/stove is different, very few metal items etc).
My point was: It's strange People don't mind wearing Army clothes and bags, whereas wearing pouches (which are just as useful) seems so strange offensive.
(theoretically webbing should be seen the same as army uniforms i.e. functional)
I know, it's a sort of "bag pedjudice", basically how ever you look at it webbing is a collection of useful pockets and you'd think it was a sensible thing to use, It seems strange to me not more people use it. Though i accept there is an image problem with it, which probably stems from "Survivalism" in the 80's.
I guess if more people use it without the constant arguments against it, it could eventually become more acceptable in the public's view..
It makes me wonder...what would happen if Ray Mears wore some on one of his films...
Would webbing remain undesirable by the masses?
another thing about webbing which is always passed over is that belt based webbing(not vests) bring your center of balance down a lot which can only be a good thing when walking over broken ground, rocks etc.
It's comfy, easy to change, fix, and comfy when used with a rucksack! I love it!!
(yes, they are real SAS, 44", and 58" pouches (apart from the smallest))
No...well, unless it's tea break time
, What I'm saying is it's easier to get to kit "if" you needed it quickly (with one hand, in the dark, etc etc) than if it was in the bottom of a daysack full of smaller bags .
Even if the stuff is subdivided into different coloured bags etc, that's no good to anyone in the dark,and you still need to take it off.
but it's what I'd do if i was in mountain conditions.
On my belt kit/webbing the kit I may need quickly (tools, first aid, torch, notepad, whistle compass) are all in my front pouches, lesser needed kit i.e. cooking gear is at the back. water bottles are at the side and can be reached with either hands.
webbing is designed for fighting in, but soldiers still need another way to carry a sleeping bag. I agree perhaps if he was insistant on using PLCE he should have at least had a side pouch or two for carrying a sleeping bag/spare clothes etc.
(but even I would wear a rucksack in mountain conditions, when i did a Mountain Leadership course in the UK I Just used a rucksack(as i would now).
Most of the time you need your hands free for climbing/map reading.
I don't carry the same gear as when I'm Bushcrafting. I have mountain gear all of which is lighter packs smaller, fuel/stove is different, very few metal items etc).
Sorry I didn't explain that well,
My point was: It's strange People don't mind wearing Army clothes and bags, whereas wearing pouches (which are just as useful) seems so strange offensive.
(theoretically webbing should be seen the same as army uniforms i.e. functional)
I know, it's a sort of "bag pedjudice", basically how ever you look at it webbing is a collection of useful pockets and you'd think it was a sensible thing to use, It seems strange to me not more people use it. Though i accept there is an image problem with it, which probably stems from "Survivalism" in the 80's. None taken, it is only personal choice.
I guess if more people use it without the constant arguments against it, it could eventually become more acceptable in the public's view..
It makes me wonder...what would happen if Ray Mears wore some on one of his films...
Would webbing remain undesirable by the masses?
another thing about webbing which is always passed over is that belt based webbing(not vests) bring your center of balance down a lot which can only be a good thing when walking over broken ground, rocks etc.
Why? Because you are interested,or to shoot down 'civvies' for wanting to wear webbing?
Nothing wrong with wearing the stuff if thats your thing....
Sounds like its unacceptable to use it.Or is it just snobbery??
Also cant imagine many ex-squaddies wanting to wear it.Probably glad to be shot of the stuff!
Nice belt order btw Rappleby!
Why do the pouches hang that way?
Why? Because you are interested,or to shoot down 'civvies' for wanting to wear webbing?
Nothing wrong with wearing the stuff if thats your thing....
Sounds like its unacceptable to use it.Or is it just snobbery??
Also cant imagine many ex-squaddies wanting to wear it.Probably glad to be shot of the stuff!
Nice belt order btw Rappleby!
Actually I was just interested, as I am an ex-squaddie who still enjoys using it every now and again!
Listen, you don't know me and after this little teddy throwing of yours I don't particulary want to know you, so in future keep your god-damn accusational comments to yourself mate!
Actually I was in the Territorial Army (Anglian reg) early 90's.
but I'd already collected and used 3 sets of webbing but for "survivalism" as a hobby for years by then.
BTW the TA issued me some very worn out 58" gear (including large pack) which was in bad condition, I had to sew holes etc before i could use it!, on top of that we had to run spend all day in it and practically sleep in the stuff Now if ever i needed a reason to hate webbing that would be it!
I and everyone I joined up with, made their own webbing more comfy and changed pouches etc, eventually eveyone was generally happy with their own kit, though I'm sure not many would use webbing out of the army!
I was using Pouches for "survival kit" whilst i was a school, (mid to late 80's) long before I ever considered joining up. I just always have found them useful
At school made a sort of webbing with 2 WW2 ammo pouches, attached to a cheep canvas bag and belt. (I kept my pens/pencils in one and my lunch in the other).
The Idea just stuck.
but I'd already collected and used 3 sets of webbing but for "survivalism" as a hobby for years by then.
BTW the TA issued me some very worn out 58" gear (including large pack) which was in bad condition, I had to sew holes etc before i could use it!, on top of that we had to run spend all day in it and practically sleep in the stuff Now if ever i needed a reason to hate webbing that would be it!
I and everyone I joined up with, made their own webbing more comfy and changed pouches etc, eventually eveyone was generally happy with their own kit, though I'm sure not many would use webbing out of the army!
I was using Pouches for "survival kit" whilst i was a school, (mid to late 80's) long before I ever considered joining up. I just always have found them useful
At school made a sort of webbing with 2 WW2 ammo pouches, attached to a cheep canvas bag and belt. (I kept my pens/pencils in one and my lunch in the other).
The Idea just stuck.
isn't that a contradiction?
The pouches hang lower so they don't get in the way of rucksack waist belts, they were on special issue the design was an improvement on 58" which was designed to use the 58" large pack.
I Had my virtual slapping for my dumb-bottom comments and ive apologised for them.
I do like the stuff! I used to have full sets of 37,58 kit...Full alice set and the one before that?Like they wore in the earlier part of the vietnam war...
Someone pass me a shovel.
I do like the stuff! I used to have full sets of 37,58 kit...Full alice set and the one before that?Like they wore in the earlier part of the vietnam war...
Someone pass me a shovel.
We almost need a poll about this
Most bushcrafters I know apart from the more "traditional skills guys" have used or still use webbing to some extent, be it a single army pouch or full combat vest.
Most bushcrafters I know apart from the more "traditional skills guys" have used or still use webbing to some extent, be it a single army pouch or full combat vest.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Im 100% with Rappleby on this subject.
I stored and then progressively ditched most of my military gear at age 40 when I left ceased military service.
There was no need for it on most day hikes and I wanted to avoid the stigma of being seen as a Rambo. I put up with the tedium of taking the pack on and off. It wasnt too bad in Oz.
Then I went to Borneo and got a job there and all my civilian kit was exposed for what it was Not for jungle use.
When you are ducking, crawling, twisting over/under fallen trees and vegetation that you cant chop through that rucksack on your back is hell. You get caught up in vines and branches or you have to take it off and push/pull through the tangle. When walking it snags on something and hoicks you back and sometimes dangerously so.
I have taken a pack off to pass to someone ahead to avoid a tight obstruction and he dropped it into a steep ravine. I had to throw away 20 minutes of elevation gained to get down there and then climb back up slip sliding all the way. Wouldnt have happened if I had belt kit.
Having weight high on your back is dangerous when walking on a slippery log over a rocky or whitewater stream but if the alternative is finding a way down to the bank through difficult vegetation eg.. bamboo or thorny stuff that is not easily cut then you have to do it.
Sometimes you need kit gloves for a climb or to push aside vegetation, a gulp of water, a spare battery for the camera, check the GPS/compass, put a bandaid on a cut, get apiece of chewing gum, pull out the notebook, etc. but you are on a steep slope or up to your ankles in rotten vegetation or up to your knees in a swamp. You dont want to rummage in a back pack then.
And if you wander away from camp you should have your parang, water bottle and essential survival items with you, But are you going to put your pack on for a short wander up the hill or walk upstream?
So I got some belt kit and used it happily for a few years until I moved to a big city and started working with an NGO and the belt kit went into a drawer.
At the moment I have a difficult trip to a remote plateau in Borneo in 2 months time. My brain is shouting belt kit belt kit . That gutless part of my ego is saying what will the environmentalists (who always come with the worst kit) think?
Id really like the belt kit but I think the gutless part of me might win. No doubt I will be punished by the jungle for being stupid.
I stored and then progressively ditched most of my military gear at age 40 when I left ceased military service.
There was no need for it on most day hikes and I wanted to avoid the stigma of being seen as a Rambo. I put up with the tedium of taking the pack on and off. It wasnt too bad in Oz.
Then I went to Borneo and got a job there and all my civilian kit was exposed for what it was Not for jungle use.
When you are ducking, crawling, twisting over/under fallen trees and vegetation that you cant chop through that rucksack on your back is hell. You get caught up in vines and branches or you have to take it off and push/pull through the tangle. When walking it snags on something and hoicks you back and sometimes dangerously so.
I have taken a pack off to pass to someone ahead to avoid a tight obstruction and he dropped it into a steep ravine. I had to throw away 20 minutes of elevation gained to get down there and then climb back up slip sliding all the way. Wouldnt have happened if I had belt kit.
Having weight high on your back is dangerous when walking on a slippery log over a rocky or whitewater stream but if the alternative is finding a way down to the bank through difficult vegetation eg.. bamboo or thorny stuff that is not easily cut then you have to do it.
Sometimes you need kit gloves for a climb or to push aside vegetation, a gulp of water, a spare battery for the camera, check the GPS/compass, put a bandaid on a cut, get apiece of chewing gum, pull out the notebook, etc. but you are on a steep slope or up to your ankles in rotten vegetation or up to your knees in a swamp. You dont want to rummage in a back pack then.
And if you wander away from camp you should have your parang, water bottle and essential survival items with you, But are you going to put your pack on for a short wander up the hill or walk upstream?
So I got some belt kit and used it happily for a few years until I moved to a big city and started working with an NGO and the belt kit went into a drawer.
At the moment I have a difficult trip to a remote plateau in Borneo in 2 months time. My brain is shouting belt kit belt kit . That gutless part of my ego is saying what will the environmentalists (who always come with the worst kit) think?
Id really like the belt kit but I think the gutless part of me might win. No doubt I will be punished by the jungle for being stupid.
I'm posting this in danger of also putting my foot in my mouth, but don't bushcrafters and ramblers have just as bad a reputation from the general public anyway? The amount of giggles I've had from friends when I explain that I'm going off to spend a night in the woods. With plenty of "eh up, here's' Ray Mears" etc. I worked at a country pub many years ago, where the landlord on the first sight of a rambler would go outside and tell them in no uncertain terms to bugger off away from the bear garden! Farmers don't seem to like them too much either.
That all said, I think most people sort of understand the attraction, but on first impression don't seem to get it. I think now it's changing somewhat, especially as the term "camping" is one of the highest google searches in this country (UK btw).
Reading Bod's post, I can fully sympathise with the need of keeping weight low, and obstruction to a minimum, from my limited experience with finding a good spot to set up for the night in remote parts of woodland, so have got hold of a simple PLCE set up. For several reasons.
1/ I hate carrying water in my pack, it seems to double the weight. It's far better and more convenient on the waist.
2/ I had a Snugpack response bum bag, which is a very useful piece for organising stuff, the problem was, that anything over the weight of a spork would try and pull my trousers down. The belt is rubbish, but the loop on the back allows me to use the PLCE belt, and the yoke keeps it away from my ankles.
3/ I now keep my brew kit all in one place in a utility pouch.
4/The medic pouch is brilliant in keeping the tools I might need to hand, like my knife and saw, as well as my first aid kit, small binoculars, camera, towel, headtorch, toilet items.
I did um and ar about it for a while, wandering whether I'd look like a soldier wannabe, but then I thought sod it, people already think I'm trying to be Ray Mears or worst a rambler, when in fact all I want to do is spend a few nights outside well away from any campsite.
I've got to say that the PLCE set up is really comfortable and a great way of carrying the heavier items you'd normally try and keep higher in your pack, which now only carries my bag, cloths, tarp and hammock.
And no, I wasn't in the forces, nor had the interest.
That all said, I think most people sort of understand the attraction, but on first impression don't seem to get it. I think now it's changing somewhat, especially as the term "camping" is one of the highest google searches in this country (UK btw).
Reading Bod's post, I can fully sympathise with the need of keeping weight low, and obstruction to a minimum, from my limited experience with finding a good spot to set up for the night in remote parts of woodland, so have got hold of a simple PLCE set up. For several reasons.
1/ I hate carrying water in my pack, it seems to double the weight. It's far better and more convenient on the waist.
2/ I had a Snugpack response bum bag, which is a very useful piece for organising stuff, the problem was, that anything over the weight of a spork would try and pull my trousers down. The belt is rubbish, but the loop on the back allows me to use the PLCE belt, and the yoke keeps it away from my ankles.
3/ I now keep my brew kit all in one place in a utility pouch.
4/The medic pouch is brilliant in keeping the tools I might need to hand, like my knife and saw, as well as my first aid kit, small binoculars, camera, towel, headtorch, toilet items.
I did um and ar about it for a while, wandering whether I'd look like a soldier wannabe, but then I thought sod it, people already think I'm trying to be Ray Mears or worst a rambler, when in fact all I want to do is spend a few nights outside well away from any campsite.
I've got to say that the PLCE set up is really comfortable and a great way of carrying the heavier items you'd normally try and keep higher in your pack, which now only carries my bag, cloths, tarp and hammock.
And no, I wasn't in the forces, nor had the interest.
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