Lost men criticised by rescuers

[Adi]

Four men rescued from the Cairngorms after being stranded overnight in blizzards have been criticised for their lack of navigational skills.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4467894.stm

I hope this is no one from this forum!

 

[Longstrider]

The silly buggers should be made to pay the costs of all search and rescue operations that lead to their safe return. Not only did they obviously not have the faintest clue as to where they were, but what did they think they were doing up there in those conditions anyway??? Don't people like these ever think to check the weather forecast? The article states... John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had decent equipment."
Shame they didn't have the common sense to go with it!

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Adi]

I don't see a problem with them being out in these conditions as long as you have the experience for the conditions you will encounter.

There are many people that think they are excellent map readers whilst they are walking in lowland areas on our green and lush pathways. yet take them somewhere more wild and they go to pieces.

This case sounds like many people today they replace experience with kit. I bet these people have never experienced true blizzard conditions and i doubt they have ever practiced there navigation skills at night or in fog. It does not say the kit they were carrying but did they have a compass or were they like so many other people that go out with just a map and GPS or even worse just a GPS. If they had a GPS the battery's did not do them well.

What i find disturbing is the fact in the photograph the guy is wearing a combat jacket which may suggest he calls himself a bushcrafter.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Don’t be too hard on them guys! I had a talk with a guy up here from Lantavarra and he told me that Ray’s winter survival course got lost here too. They found back in the end while the locals where watching them all the time from a distance.

He told me that it was easy to get lost in the rolling hills here. They all look the same when covered with snow. It’s hard to see rivers and landmarks. If there are blizzard conditions or fog you are in for it. If the wind gets going and you don’t have food and a fire boy I would not like to be in the fjälls or mountaintops.
Last year a sami boy died here, he went through the ice into a lake, there was a blizzard and he didn’t find his cabin. He froze to death 200 meters away from his cabin. A GBS could have saved his live.

They survived and got another chance lets hope they learned something

PS which opens up for a good question:
Whats the best book on navigation you could recommend?


cheers
Abbe

 

[Doc]

I know the area these guys were lost in. They were MILES from where they thought they were.

I'm not sure how this could have occurred as in poor visibility it is usual practice to navigate by compass bearing and step counting, and although not perfectly accurate, I don't see how this could have resulted in a position error of several miles, unless they had an inaccurate compass (not unknown).

I do wonder if they were using a GPS. Although normally very accurate, I have heard of another GPS failure on Macdui http://www.outac.org/cairngorm.htm and they are not infallible. If you set the wrong map datum you will get an error - I don't know if this would account for it.

 

[SMARTY]

I agree that navigation skills are required for people going into the hills. I think the fact that they realised they were in trouble and did something about it is commendable. The mobile phone saves lives again!!! The comments by the SAR team leader are understandable too. I bet he has NEVER been lost!!!!

 

[gregorach]

I'm not sure how this could have occurred as in poor visibility it is usual practice to navigate by compass bearing and step counting, and although not perfectly accurate, I don't see how this could have resulted in a position error of several miles, unless they had an inaccurate compass (not unknown).

I do wonder if they were using a GPS. Although normally very accurate, I have heard of another GPS failure on Macdui http://www.outac.org/cairngorm.htm and they are not infallible. If you set the wrong map datum you will get an error - I don't know if this would account for it.

Well, it's very hard to comment without knowing a lot more about the specifics than we do, but the way it often goes is that people think they know where they are, but are wrong. From that point on, every step takes them further away from where they think they are.

Then again, a lot of people carry compasses, but don't actually use them.

 

[NickBristol]

Without the specifics it's going to be impossible to work out what went wrong, but generally people can learn a lot from incidents like this. My take on it is that they either didn't know the basics of navigation, or they were overly reliant on technology.

Without knowing, I suspect the latter: 'heads down' navigating using GPS alone to take you from co-ordinate to co-ordinate with no reference to a map for terrain info, the geography of the hills forcing them to follow a certain path ultimately away from their destination.

Maybe not tho, for all we know they could have been using a handwritten map on the inside of a fag packet or following the directions of a leader who'd walked the same route several years ago in mid-summer but is "bound to recognise the path when we get there"

 

[andyn]

I'm ok at navigation, but certainly no god at it, but like to think I also have the common sense to know whether the skills i possess are enough before setting out on different walks/climbs in different eather conditions.

I do admit that I use GPS reciever, but I also always have a waterproof map for the region I am in and a compass which I know how to use


They are four very lucky people and should be very grateful to those that came to help them.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Horace Kephart a serious woodcrafter and bushcrafter wrote in his book that he got lost several times in his life in the woods. Nobody knows how we react when it hits us, we might think we know it all but when it happens to us we don’t know how we will react. He remembered that the only thing he was capable of doing or to remember in his panic stricken mind were; "Stop!!" wait and sit down. He did that but it took him a while before the panic left him and he was able to function again.

The next day he found his way out of the woods but got lost several times again in his lifetime.

Ok, we can say that he found out by himself, without a phone etc but I believe that if we are
too harsh with other people we might push some of our members into the fear of failing ,that could kill their live. This guys stopped, they analyzed the situation and judged themselves right. They knew they couldn’t make it alone. That deserves respect; they humbled themselves and made the call. And they survived!

It would be terrible if one off us out of pride and fear of failure would wait too long the batteries would die in the cold, the call would not be made and the guys would die.
There is no pride and honor in dying. Dead people can’t learn anymore.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Doc]

Following air accidents and 'near misses' (perhaps 'near hit' would be a better term ) there is always an investigation. I know this, having crashed a glider once....

It might be a good idea if there was a no-blame 'significant event enquiry' after these episodes. It might prevent errors being repeated by other people.

 

[gregorach]

I'm ok at navigation, but certainly no god at it, but like to think I also have the common sense to know whether the skills i possess are enough before setting out on different walks/climbs in different eather conditions.

Yeah, I'd like to think that too... But when people say the weather is unpredictable in the Scottish mountains, they really mean it. It's really impossible to know how well you'll cope in a white-out in gale force winds unless you've been there, and so far, I've been lucky enough to avoid it.

Remember, in a real white-out, you're going to have a hard time reading your compass or GPS, never mind following it.

The one thing we can definitely say in these guys' favour is that they had the gear to survive the night lost on the mountain in blizzard conditions, and they used it. When they realised they were really in trouble, they stopped - many would've kept going, possibly leading to a much worse outcome. Many wouldn't have had survival bags.

 

[troy]

After many years of hiking/navigational experiance in many different countries in the forces and as a civilian, I still manage to get lost now and again even in mountain ranges I know and it is still a scary ordeal, and any quims about asking passing hikers for help (and do ask not follow - they may be lost too!) or ringing recue teams, disappeared years ago.

In all cases I found it best to back to training, especially in a blizzard situation and first see if I can get myself out of the situation, if not then I would have no quims about arranging a rescue.

We are lucky enough in this country to have some of the finest civilain volunteer and armed forces rescue teams along with RAF helicopter support whose soul purpose is to save lives.

I think due to huge publicity, most people who go into the mountains knew what to expect but mother nature can dish up some pretty bad weather conditions - in the end, keep an eye on the weather, if it gets worse take a lower route or get off the mountains compeletly - the mountain will still be there for another day.

 

[MalIrl]

PS which opens up for a good question:
Whats the best book on navigation you could recommend?

Abbe

Abbe,

Without meaning to sound trite, but experience is much more important than a book. The basics of taking bearings, backbearings, setting and reading a map, and reading terrain are straightforward enough. Knowing how that applies to travelling in the wilds is only gained by lots of application.

It's always instructive to prepare a route card for any walk and then compare this to what happened on the actual walk. Were your time estimates correct? When you paced it out, how (in)accurate were you? When you got to the end of each leg, how far from the intended point were you? To what extent did the ground underfoot, terrain, and weather impact your accuracy? (It's difficult to do this if you're leading a group, as your mind won't be fully on it: worthwhile doing a few dedicated sessions!)

Any map and compass navigation will have a certain amount of innaccuracy built in. Terrain and weather will increase both the innacuracies and your ability to recover from them. It's only by experience that you begin to appreciate these impacts and learn how to allow for them.

In any case, where these four were concerned, you would have to question why they went out at all given the weather forecast! Watched "touching the Void" last night, which just goes to show how even with experience and the right equipment you can have a lot of problems. You shouldn't mess with extreme weather in extreme environments. I hope you're right: I hope they learned their lesson!

Slan,
Mal

 

[troy]

On this subject I wonder if any of you would be interested in joining me on alittle low level hike I am planning - basically for about 5 to 6 days following the fort william to cape wreath trail from glenfinnan to glen shiel or further. There will be vehicle support if needed from inverness and food caches will be left along the way. Hopfully most of the nights will be spent in bothies.

I was planning to do it during winter, probably on snow shoes if conditions allow - so I suppose I'd be looking for some one whose done this sort of thing before or who would be willing to do abit of training first (especially firsts aid). Winter up here in the mountains can be very pretty and unforgiving and this is the only way to find that out.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Abbe,

Without meaning to sound trite, but experience is much more important than a book. The basics of taking bearings, backbearings, setting and reading a map, and reading terrain are straightforward enough. Knowing how that applies to travelling in the wilds is only gained by lots of application.

It's always instructive to prepare a route card for any walk and then compare this to what happened on the actual walk. Were your time estimates correct? When you paced it out, how (in)accurate were you? When you got to the end of each leg, how far from the intended point were you? To what extent did the ground underfoot, terrain, and weather impact your accuracy? (It's difficult to do this if you're leading a group, as your mind won't be fully on it: worthwhile doing a few dedicated sessions!)

Any map and compass navigation will have a certain amount of innaccuracy built in. Terrain and weather will increase both the innacuracies and your ability to recover from them. It's only by experience that you begin to appreciate these impacts and learn how to allow for them.

In any case, where these four were concerned, you would have to question why they went out at all given the weather forecast! Watched "touching the Void" last night, which just goes to show how even with experience and the right equipment you can have a lot of problems. You shouldn't mess with extreme weather in extreme environments. I hope you're right: I hope they learned their lesson!

Slan,
Mal

Lots of these books deal with counting steps, measuring that etc. I was wondering if there are more hunter tips. When I run around in the bush hunting I don’t have the time and concentration to count steps. What I do is studying the map first, limit my area into places of natural borders and get lost in there, then I orientate myself on a mountain or river mark, a lake or something and find always back. I wonder how I do if the weather really messes up while I am hunting. That problem I take into account the day before reading the weather rapport. If a hunter has some good tips for me I would be happy to hear about.
I am considering buying a gps as a back up. The price puts me off already for some month but heck maybe it will be a Christmas present to myself.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Doc]

Abbe, although a GPS is very expensive in the shops, they can often be bought much more cheaply on ebay or from the US.

It will still cost about UKP 50 though (new).

 

[MalIrl]

Lots of these books deal with counting steps, measuring that etc. I was wondering if there are more hunter tips. When I run around in the bush hunting I don’t have the time and concentration to count steps. What I do is studying the map first, limit my area into places of natural borders and get lost in there, then I orientate myself on a mountain or river mark, a lake or something and find always back. I wonder how I do if the weather really messes up while I am hunting. That problem I take into account the day before reading the weather rapport. If a hunter has some good tips for me I would be happy to hear about.
I am considering buying a gps as a back up. The price puts me off already for some month but heck maybe it will be a Christmas present to myself.

cheers
Abbe

What you're talking about is referred to as handrails; natural or man made features that you can follow to bring you to a specific point without having to concentrate on compass and step-counting. However, you point out the exact problem you can have with a handrail, which is finding it if the weather closes in.

This happened to a group of friends of mine last year when the cloud came down and visibility dropped. They found their handrail in the end, but learned from it that step-counting is not always that accurate and you have to adjust for ground and weather. What they hadn't noticed so much was the value of the route card, which made sure they were going in the right direction, but in fact it's this that got them out safely.

It's important to always be aware of where your handrails are, and the best way is to frequently take compass bearings to the nearest handrail. If the weather closes in at least you know which way to go to find your route out. I also highly recommend the use of back bearings for accurate navigation.

Slán,
Mal