What's that thin bit of cotton webbing on the back of the British Army PLCE Bergen?

[RAPPLEBY2000]

What's that thin bit of cotton webbing on the back of the British Army PLCE Bergen?
I have a (genuine) Birtish army P.L.C.E. bergen and there is a short length of cotton webbing half way down the sack on the rear.
I've put red tape on the straps to ID them:

Initially i thought it seems to be the right place for Idea 1, an Ice axe,
but for proper ice work you'd need two axe's, (therefore 2 straps and it seems a bit short for that use anyway) .
but there's only 1 strap(I've used ice axes' you need something stronger and more easily undone).
I've added my own draw cords (see photo)for this purpose


Idea 2, to tie down the main lid straps(but again only one)!

Idea 3, radio antennae?(again you'd use something stronger/adjustable probably with clips)

Idea 4, for a digging tool? (other than the folded one)? (but again it seems to weak/short)

Last ditch Idea Idea 5, something to hang ID on?(probably most likely ) though why to one side/under a strap?
(but there's a green panel to write on with marker pen the other side of the bergen)
(In the old day's you'd use a coloured card to tie on to your bergen to show which company in the battalion the bag belongs to)

Or is it for an obsolete piece of kit? (but i've seen it on every PLCE Bergen I've seen new or old)
it's the same strap you normally find tied in a bow around British army roll mats.
and why is it thin cotton rather than stonger Nylon webbing?
it would be difficult to undo if you had cold hands or wearing gloves.
I've owned 2 genuine Bergens OG and DPM they both have it!
why? why? why ?

aaaaaaggggg! what is it?
Please someone put me out of my misery!:togo:

(my money is on Idea 5)

 

[bushcraft_lad]

i think its to hold a walking staff or basha poles mabye as on mine there was a webbing loop right at the bottom of it for the base of the walking pole ?

i have it on my DPM bergan

regards, jordan

 

[phaserrifle]

my guess is that it's put there to give bored soldiers something to think about.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

i think its to hold a walking staff or basha poles mabye as on mine there was a webbing loop right at the bottom of it for the base of the walking pole ?

naah mate, soldiers don't use "walking staffs" if they did (like ski poles for use in the arctic with skis) they'd use 2 and there'd be 2 straps made of stronger stuff.
(remember PLCE was designed for military use, not bushcraft, though the bag was origionaly copied from civi berghaus bergen).


Basha poles would be kept right out of the way, inside the bergen sack, in one of it's side pockets,(or possibly rolled up in a sleeping mat on top?) to protect the poles and stop them catching on stuff (i.e. not suitable for climbing in and out of vehicles/aircraft/buildings etc).

during my time in the army (before PLCE issue) if I'd had a basha pole on the back of my Bergen I'm sure a "nice" Sgt would have ripped it off and chucked it in a bush for me!
though i agree a sensible place to carry one as a bushcrafter!

my guess is that it's put there to give bored soldiers something to think about.

or send them round the twist
as with all issued equipment it can't usually be tampered with otherwise i'd imagine the strap would have been cut off damn fast!

(I'm sticking with the ID Idea)

 

[bushcraft_lad]

ahh well just a stab in the dark mate

regards, jordan

 

[Retired Member southey]

Taken from a rumour forum "To tie round the shaft of a Shovel GS when the ice axe loop is used correctly" looks about right to,

 

[John Fenna]

I understood that it was for an ice axe - for "security on steep ground" and ice axe arrest (as opposed to ice climbing) you only need one axe.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

I understood that it was for an ice axe - for "security on steep ground" and ice axe arrest (as opposed to ice climbing) you only need one axe.

Good point, though i was thinking they'd carry the axe's in-between climbs?
still seems a bit thin for that use though.

Taken from a rumour forum "To tie round the shaft of a Shovel GS when the ice axe loop is used correctly" looks about right to,

I guess before the folding version were issued?

I have an old 58" era shovel I'll take a pic and post it.

 

[phaserrifle]

I guess before the folding version were issued?

I have an old 58" era shovel I'll take a pic and post it.

I believe the shovel GS is seperate from the folding entrenching tool. their both on issue, but for different tasks.

 

[Retired Member southey]

the folding shovel is personal entrenching tool, individual issue for shell scrapes and the like, where as shovel gs or the shovel with a normal head but a shorter handle is a group issue for deeper digging tasks such as section fire trench, latrines iirc,

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

well i went out and filled my PLCE bergen and tried to fit the 58" shovel as suggested:

well rather annoyingly I couldn't get the whole of the shovel "T" handle through the axe loop to fit it the same way as an "ice axe".
I could only fit one side of the "T" handle through(as pictured)
fitted as shown the shovel handle stick out below the base of the bag.
the cotton web strap mentioned before was barely long enough to tie around the shaft.
the head of the shovel does sit nicely as suggested under the hood.

to show the difference I attached a fire axe the way the axe loop should be used.

again the strap is only just long enough to tie around the shaft.

I've spoken to someone else on another forum, and they say the strap isn't on newer issued versions of the Bergen anymore.

Thank's for all the suggestions and advice,
I agree it is a (perhaps not the best designed) shovel/Ice axe holder!
cheers!:You_Rock_

 

[The Lord Poncho]

In my experience spades usually have their heads covered with a sand bag, and are shoved handle first down between the side pocket and the main body of the bergen. The ties are there for an ice axe- as alluded to above, for general stability, step cutting, and emergency arrest purposes, one axe is all that is used. Such an axe tends to be much longer handled than those used in pairs for climbing steep ice (with a 50-60cm shaft) and thus the ties are positioned where they will perform this task adequatly (but not well!).

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Incidently, the two webbing loops which protrude either side of the front pocket are used to shorten the closure straps when your beergen isn't full. Not many people have cottoned onto this, but, you basically pass the male fastex clips throgh the loops, and then back up to the female clips on the bergen hood, and hey presto- you can cinch the hood much further down the front of the bergen!

I think i'm right in saying that they are also used (along with the webbing loops on the lower back) to rig the bergen when parachuting, but i've no experience of this.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

I think i'm right in saying that they are also used (along with the webbing loops on the lower back) to rig the bergen when parachuting, but i've no experience of this.

This is exactly what i thought until a ex-squaddie corrected me
I had seen pictures of US airbourne troops that wear the alice pack upside down on the front of their legs like this:

and thought that's what the loops were for, but they aren't.

those straps (next to the waist belt) are to tuck the padded wast belt into when the belt is not in use (if in close contact with the enemy, river crossing etc) when you might have to dump your sack at a moments notice.
they can be folded so they're retrieved with one outward pull like this:

form my own thought's you could feed another belt through them and use as a "make-do" waist belt if the main padded one broke.

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Then i'm afraid your ex squaddie is wrong- those loops on the back of the bag (i.e. where your back is so we are talking about the same ones!) are definitely for rigging when parachuting. you will note that they are too high for the waist belt to be folded into, and as the waist belt itself is already very high (as a bergen is design to sit on top of webbing) the idea of feeding another waist belt through them wouldn't work- it would be sitting around your ribs!

For this reason the waist belts of the bergens are never worn anyhow, and many cut them off. If i knew how to upload a photo onto here, i have a photo that illustrates perfectly how high they sit!

Early trials PLCE bergens had removeable waist belts, but the buckels for these were right at the bottom corners of the bergen.

The issue daysack also has identical webbing loops on its back- again for parachute rigging- in actual fact, the daysack has a seperate deliberate allowance for stowage of the waist belt around the front of the pack.

Nick

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Oh your photo has just disproven my theory that they are too high to fold the belt into!- but just look at the amount of stitching on those loops- that's not to hold 25gramms of waist belt....

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

but just look at the amount of stitching on those loops- that's not to hold 25gramms of waist belt....

i stand corrected! (or is that un-corrected? )
that is a huge amount of stitching as you'd find on climbing gear etc.
infact, there's more stitching on the loops than the shoulder straps!!

Early trials PLCE bergens had removeable waist belts, but the buckels for these were right at the bottom corners of the bergen.

yup, I've seen these (a long time ago)!

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Next stop, i'll lash my bergen to my belt via the loops and throw myself out of a mature oak holding a tarp above my head to field test them. In actual fact, i broke a collar bone using my duvet as a parachute when i was younger in an ill fated bunk bed based experiment. You live and learn!

 

[BOD]

I would never jump out of an aeroplane but I asked Condex (a quiet member of this site) the same question a few years ago and as i understood him they were used in parachuting though I think another piece of kit was also involved somehow.

As he is an ex-para, I guess he should know.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

from what I've seen in the media they attach a cord and dangle the bergen 30 ft or so below them so the feeling or sound of the bag hitting the ground especially at night gives them an idea when the ground is near.

I'm guessing a couple of carabina type clips would be used fixed to the front of the soldier until they lower the bag.