Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Janne]

I have never bern there so I only know a little from the people I know.
Life expectancy is lower than for us.
Hygiene zero. Loads of diseases. Masive destruction of nature.
The poor people have nutritional deficiensies

 

[Robson Valley]

Of the 20 common amino acids that are used in protein synthesis, about 1/2 are "essential" in that we cannot build them, we have to eat them.
Lysine deficiency is the classic example that presents as crippling mental challenges.
A very large segment of the world's population does not have any access to remedial treatment.
Yeah, sure they're Vegan. They're also half dead.

 

[Prophecy]

I mean the statements from dietetic associations above involve probably hundreds or thousands of scientists so to say a vegan diet can't be healthy is quite amusing really.

 

[crosslandkelly]

We can add a new word to the list now.
Flexitarianism.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamela...sm-will-be-all-the-rage-in-2018/#45c07b90b083

 

[Janne]

So we have been Flexitarians all along.....

I call it Old Fashioned Eating.

They mention lab grown meat and seafood substitutes.
Personally, we try to avoid factory hyper processed foods. I do pig out on Quorn a couple of times a year.

Avoiding nutritional pills and other chemicals as much as we can.

There is no need to eat this chemistry if we lessen our meat consumtion to - say- Pre Industrial level.
Or the level people consumed during the ’glorious’ Communist times behind the Iron Border.

If we do that, then there is no need to gorge on meat abd fish analogs three times a day.

Having said this, we are having a slow roasted Pork joint today!
With red cabbage, sauerkraut and potato knödel.
US red cabbage, German Sauerkraut, Canadian Potatoes and wheat, local eggs, local piggy.

 

[Robson Valley]

Company now. Last night was local foods for omnivory except for the condiments and the wine.
Organic beef, boiled new potatoes with butter and dill (20 different kinds of salt to experiment with.)
Caesar salad of local Romaine and eggs. Imported cheese and sauces. No left overs.

 

[Janne]

One of life’s pleasures for me ( those are getting rarer):
Boiled new potatoes, sprinkled with finely chopped dill, butter on top, a bit of salt.
Drink lactic fermented milk to ( diluted youghurt can do) type Kefir, or the swedish ’filmjölk’ . The N. American Buttermilk is ok too.
Very oldfashioned Central and Eastern European peasant food!

Robson V, that is a good Vegetarian meal! Try it one day a hot summer evening. Refreshing, filling.

 

[Billy-o]

Yeah, sure they're Vegan. They're also half dead.

I think there are probably too many overdeterminants to make a judgement of the health of South Indian vegans based solely on diet. Poverty, disease, pollution and various other epiphenonena of the effects of global capitalism on the region would need to be weighed. Wealthy people live longer, have better quality food, shelter, working environments and healthcare. Lysine deficiency is maybe a part of that.

 

[Robson Valley]

The Lysine amino acid issue came to light at the end of WW II in Mexico.
Their flour corn ( soft starch) varieties were particularly low in Lysine despite being used as a bulk fraction of the everyday peasant diet.
A concerted global genetic effort by many participants successfully bred a much higher Lysine maize.

I can recall reading of the genetics but can't remember what the deficiency presented as.

I can do a non-meat meal from time to time. Eggs, ale, cheeses, ale, various crackers, ale, olives and pickles, ale etc.
I've have never looked at a list of do's and don'ts for vegetarians.
I have a gluten addiction for bready things.
Bacon is a narcotic. Nobody gets pi$$y eating bacon.

 

[Janne]

South Indian Vegetarians. They eat milk and milk products.
Check online to confirm!

One of the problems eating vegetable matter is the biological access of the nutrients. The human body where the digestive system is created for Omnivorism, has difficulty absorbing the various nutrients.
( even from meat).

Sure, we can stuff ourself with veg and fruit containing modt, maybe all, of what we need. But will we absorb it?

One of the growing deficiendies is lack of Iron.

 

[Robson Valley]

Cook in cheap steel like woks and cast iron. All of mine are so seasoned that they are non-stick.
Always use cheap steel spoons and scrapers. The result is > 1/2 your daily iron requirement.
But altogether, there isn't enough iron in a human to make a 3" carpentry nail, one atom at a time.

Absorbance. We can stuff ourselves with nutrient but the pick-up molecules can only work so fast.
So we lose a lot of it. We are built to be inefficient as Hello. Flood the place and pick up some of it.
The very Laws of Thermodynamics show that there's never going to be real efficiency. Entropy marches on.

Medications = maybe you take 50 mg and the Dr knows that you will absorb only 2 mg.
That's the giggle about Statin class meds. Turns out that there's a biochemical in grapefruit, Seville oranges and some other citrus
which dramatically enhances Statin uptake. People were OD on the stuff until they figured it out.
I'm still prepared to cheat and munch on some homemade Seville marmalade once in a while.
And I ain't dead yet.

 

[santaman2000]

I think there are probably too many overdeterminants to make a judgement of the health of South Indian vegans based solely on diet. Poverty, disease, pollution and various other epiphenonena of the effects of global capitalism on the region would need to be weighed. Wealthy people live longer, have better quality food, shelter, working environments and healthcare. Lysine deficiency is maybe a part of that.

Yeah I also thought about the complexity of their health issues. That said I expect some of those other issues are inter-related with diet: You mentioned disease; of course disease is related to overall health but then again, isn't disease a symptom rather than a cause? Aren't some of those diseases contracted precisely because poor diet leaves them with weakened immunity? Also poverty probably contributes to the veganism.

 

[Janne]

Not Veganism. Vegetarians.

Still, in poverty stricken countries, protein deficiendy is the problem.
Yes, they eat pulses ( beans, lentils, soya) and still do not get enough protein.

The Pork was delicious. Son rubbed it with crudhed Garlic, salt, Rosemary. Cooked under Al foil at low heat for 4 hours, exposed at higher heat for 30 minutes.
Tomorrow we will eat Vegetarian.
Crepes. Nutella. Cloudberry jam. Strawberries sliced and sprinkled with Lime juice. Sugar and Cinnamon.

 

[Robson Valley]

Those proteins cannot replace the essential vitamin qualities to be gained from other foods.
No where near in the same bio category.

The horror of the mix is that when Vegans fail to provide them selves with a complete diet of cofactors, coenzymes and vitamins,
their immune systems begin to shut down. This is not Dr. Google bulltweet.
The direct presentation is their vulnerability to disease. Don't believe me? Try it.

 

[Prophecy]

Still, in poverty stricken countries, protein deficiendy is the problem.
Yes, they eat pulses ( beans, lentils, soya) and still do not get enough protein.

Surely that's more a lack of food altogether rather than specifically a lack of protein. I mean the kids you see with the pot bellies are wildly malnourished. They're just not eating enough altogether.

I've heard Doctors saying that they've never seen anyone with a protein deficiency in the West, because if you're consuming enough calories, your protein levels cannot possibly be low. Protein has been hugely overhyped as a marketing ploy for years. Just check out the vegan bodybuilders who don't even supplement and get a normal range of protein and are still able to build muscle.

 

[santaman2000]

Surely that's more a lack of food altogether rather than specifically a lack of protein. I mean the kids you see with the pot bellies are wildly malnourished. They're just not eating enough altogether.......

Definitely some truth in this.

 

[Janne]

Those pot bellied children ( disease called Kwashiorkor) base food is a maize porridge, vegetables, pulses, fruits
They get enough carbs.
Kwashiorkor is a protein deficiency.

In African countries where they eat 'bushmeat' that disease is very rare.

 

[Prophecy]

But they're still malnourished and aren't consuming anywhere near their total daily energy expenditure. The treatment, according to something I just read, would be to up the protein and also the amount of calories consumed.

Luckily us vegans in the west don't get it because we consume enough calories.

Those pot bellied children ( disease called Kwashiorkor) base food is a maize porridge, vegetables, pulses, fruits
They get enough carbs.
Kwashiorkor is a protein deficiency.

 

[santaman2000]

But they're still malnourished and aren't consuming anywhere near their total daily energy expenditure. The treatment, according to something I just read, would be to up the protein and also the amount of calories consumed.

Luckily us vegans in the west don't get it because we consume enough calories.

The average total calorie consumption in Japan is only about 60% of the western RDA yet they remain healthy. They eat much less red meat and almost no dairy at all; but still, they consume lots of fish and fish products.

Even so, their average height has increased since WW2 (after occupying forces introduced higher red meat consumption)

 

[Janne]

They get enough energy. If not = death.
Of course in a starvation situation they do not get enough energy, but I am talking about Kwashiorkor occurring in the normal, largely agricultural, society.


there is a strange (maybe not?) situation:
the hunter gatherer societies that still exist like to hunt, be it large game or grubs and insects. They can easily get enough nutrition ( except protein) by collecting vegetabilia, but still spend a lot of effort getting animals.

I think their bodies tell them instinctively that the body needs animal based food, just like our bodies tell us we need water.