Tick removed....now what?

[Janne]

I've had a dentist prescribe a course of antibiotics BEFORE a tooth extraction just as a preventative measure. I agree with you about them being overprescribed though.

Yes we do that in certain instances. An extraction of an infected tooth can 'pump' the bacteria and toxins into the blood stream. Ok for young healthy individuals ( mostly) as their immune system can handle it, but on some compromised patients we do that.
Usually a very short, intensive course.

 

[santaman2000]

I on the other hand cannot remember exactly when I last managed to pry any antibiotics from a doctor...I think it has been more than 10 years, despite having had three infections since which once upon a time would have been treated with such meds. I don't know who it is who has over prescribed, or where, but it wasn't any of the 11 or 12 doctors, spread over four practices in four towns in three parts of the country, that I have encountered in the last 22 years. Maybe in places where the doctors are not primarily gate keepers with a mission to prevent excess expenditure of government funds on hypochondriacs, the prescription situation is different. Here, you have to feel like death to get an appointment, which will only be available a week or two in the future (so anything really bad will have killed you already), then you may get referred to the nurse to draw blood, but that will probably be another day, that needs a separate appointment, then you will go home and carry on dying for a week until you get a message that your results are in, after which you can make a further appointment to discuss your results, cue a further few days or week, then you get to see a different doctor who has absolutely no idea why you came in in the first place, who taps away on a computer and asks what you would like to know about your test results! Of course, by now you have either got over whatever it was (see, you didn't need treatment!), it has become chronic, or killed you. Two out of three chances that you won't cost the Health Service any money.

Given that the above is the situation, it seems reasonable to go in with the aim to get treatment at all costs, because it will be a long battle any way, and if you don't fight, you will simply be turned away. No chance of convincing someone that flu symptoms are reason for antibiotics if you are polite and very British about it.

I don't believe I've ever had antibiotics for flu (or any other virus) but I have had a number of infections treated with them. Being diabetic means my immune system is weaker than most.

That said, anybody who believes antibiotics are overprescribed in the US ------ is absolutely right. That seems to be changing, but slowly.

Regular check-ups we make in advance (from 3 months to 1 year in advance) but I can't imagine waiting that long for an appointment for an acute problem. I usually get same day appointments even when I don't just go to the walk-in clinic.

 

[Janne]

It is how the British NHS is structured.
Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Money is being spent on Admin, not at the Coalface.

I saw kids and the elderly on NHS for 11 years. Nightmare. Not the lovely, grateful patients, but the bureaucracy.

 

[santaman2000]

It is how the British NHS is structured.
Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.....

I expect that's a problem with every bureaucracy everywhere though.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Sorry chaps. I really shouldn't get on my soap box like that. :sad6:. No, I wouldn't want to see flu treated with antibiotics, never even come close to happening in my experience. What I meant was that, as I understand it, the early onset of Lyme can present as flu-like symptoms. If one sees one doc about a tick, but they send you home...then you see a different one about flu like symptoms, there is a risk that they wouldn't connect the dots, unless you do it for them.

 

[Janne]

No constructive idea or post is bad!

The examination should also be by asking questions. One of them is if the patient has been in nature.
Flu like symptoms = Flu, HIV, Lyme plus a handful other possible diagnoses.
The problem is - the GPs do not spend enough time with each patient. My GP, a friend and a patient, spent 10 minutes with me.
I think that is the average.
Increased to 30-40 minutes when I started seeing him on a Private basis.

No time to examine, ask and think in 10 minutes.

 

[santaman2000]

Agreed C-Claycomb. On all [points. Janne, also agreed, but I think most doctors (on both sides of the Atlantic) probably react much the way C-C described; just assume it's mild flu until it's really too late for the antibiotics to help much. I really, really wish they'd kept the vaccine on the market.

 

[Janne]

I have been seen by Dr's in Czech Republic, with a nice starting Lyme. Antibiotics, by injection and tablets, stopped it.
In Norway - blood test after about 2 weeks of being ambushed by ticks. negative
In Sweden - same as in Norway. Negative.

If you know you got tick bitten just inform the doctor, demand a test. But the test has to be done a couple of weeks after the bite, when antibodies have been formed. Still plenty of time for treatment.

If you present yourself with the rash you will/should be treated immediately.


But do not listen to me, read what the experts write!

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/lyme-disease-guidance-data-and-analysis

 

[Uilleachan]

If you find a tick, remove it and keep an eye out for excessive swelling and or the bullseye rash. But more importantly, as the bullseye rash doesn't always apear, keep a weather eye on your general health. If you notice joint pain or flue-like symptoms etc. up to a few weeks after, go to the doctor and ask them to test you for Lyme's.

Ticks are part and parcel of where I live, so going to the doctor every time you pick one up is to waste everyones time, i.e. counter productive.

 

[davyowens]

I picked up double figures of ticks over the course of an 8 day Sea Kayak camp trip along the wild western shorelines from Arrochar to Loch goil -Took them off as soon as I found them & applied iodine etc etc. Hill walked & camped for years & had plenty of ticks before then...& belive me ...far few since then.... anyway, this place was infested - problem was, we never had our guard up during the first 3 days of the trip - became aware when carrying firewood & saw tick on my wrist - then found many more all over, we were cutting aboot in shorts once the wetsuits off....Later aware precaustions were taken - fuelled by extreme paranoia!! which basically meant staying on the beach & eyeing the grass with extreme hatred - wanting a flamethrower etc etc... When I got back home, I had rashes around bites on my legs, one in particular was about size of a 2 pence, not the classic bulls eye but a red angry rash that was getting bigger. Went to Doctor who basically looked at & said:" Doh! nasty skin rash - I'll give you cream",- I protested & got a 7 day course of 'ethyromycin' instead. (ethyromycin is for nappy rash in my book). I went home took these but the rash really played on me, so I done some research & saw rashes which looked a lot like mine being called lymes .... I went back to the doc & asked for a long course of 'Doxycycline' - Doxy is one of the antibiotics that kills lyme Borrelia & once you have the rash, you want to get it down you quick style - she gave me 14 days worth (which is crap) - correct antibiotic this time because I told (the Doc that) but of course typically people are never a long enough course to ensure complete eradication - Lyme borellia can go into a dormant cystic state & only to re emerge later - hence the reason it is referred to as a relapsing condition, anyway took them & the rashes went away & to be fair I've not had any problem - I put my ailments down to old age anyhoo. That was 2010 - Ticks & the dangers do now at least get a mention in the media in Scotland thanks to the hard efforts of groups like BADA UK etc...but Docs in the central belt simply don't have a clue about the subject you'd be better going to see a vet & barking. I dropped mega hints to try & get the Doc to test me for Lyme but I got a complete 'Deafie' - the big rubber ear. Seemingly there are a few testing methods - some more reliable than others - In Scotland, Raigmore Hospital in Inverness is the authority on it - I think they see more cases - therefore are generally aware.
I took plenty of photos of the rashes incase I had to seek advice after they were gone - Being older & wiser now, maybe I'd try the 'Demand a test' tactic I see in an earlier post - I'm not sure all docs respond well to this though.
prevention is my motto now, I am very choosy about campsites now & usually check for ticks in area before I go bushwhacking - my outer layer is treated with permethrin spray (such as life venture brand which covers clothes for 6 months apparently)
Why cant I just buy a course of simple 'wide spectrum' antibiotics such as 'Doxycycline' to hold in my first aid kit? so in the event of 'ANY' infection far from civalisation, I have an option to start taking them as precaution. You can't do this in the UK - why not? What harm would this do? If I were going to a tropical zone, this would not be a problem - you can buy such things over the counter in some countries.
All said and done, I had many many bites before the event above & no real rash - not all tick bites will cause lyme - loads of people get bit - my bites as bad as the rash was, were never comfirmed as such & I'm still alive - a bit worn out but that might just be wear & tear. if I had had the choice though,
I,de have taken 28 days antibiotics & got tested.

 

[Janne]

You can not buy antibiotics without a prescription, narrow or broad spectrum, because you do not have a clue how or when to use them.
Different infections need different antibiotics, different dose and time.

Take it wrongly and you might cultivate a nice, resistant strain that can damage you or somebody else.

In selecting an antibiotic, we look into what other meds, medical conditions, age, sensitivities or allergies you have.

As I had a well developed Lyme, the Dr choose to start me up with an AB injection, then a high daily dose of Cefurox.
Cured me 100%, no lingering effects.

 

[Laurentius]

Yes we do that in certain instances. An extraction of an infected tooth can 'pump' the bacteria and toxins into the blood stream. Ok for young healthy individuals ( mostly) as their immune system can handle it, but on some compromised patients we do that.
Usually a very short, intensive course.

it is a trend it seems to go with medical fashion, a few years ago my dentist used to insist that I should take antibiotics an extraction, last week I had an extraction from the same dentist where he was not recommending antibiotics. Same dentist several years later. Same result too, I got a dry socket antibiotics or no.

 

[Janne]

Yes, the recommendations have changed. We used to give Amoxycillin the night before, one hour before and a couple of hours after the OP, if the patient had implants ( knee, hip, other joints and teeth ) plus some medical conditions ( heart, joint plus lowered immune system).

Now we only give it one hour before, and a couple of hours after the OP, if you had a recent implant or heart op.
No doubt thet will change again.

 

[davyowens]

Yeah I agree Joe public just has no clue how to take a 'a common medicine like an antibiotic' in the precautionary context.....That's why he or she will just jump on the internet Which as far as I can tell is exactly what most Doctors do anyway - yep just input: 'treatment for early stage Lyme,......Bing!!!!.......'Doxycycline 200mg twice daily for 28 days will maintain the levels in the blood to give best prognosis'....that info also comes from An organisation which is run by folks who have actually had/or have the chronic condition hence know better than a lot of would be 'medical experts' what's best....self medicate? Damn right - and plenty of long term 'chronic Lyme ' sufferers would do likewise.

 

[Janne]

I you are pregnant you do not want to take Doxycycline. Or a young child. Or if you have stomach problems, hiatus hernia.

Or if you are walking in the Highlands and are exposed to the sun...... did the internet site done by the chronic sufferers tell you that?


Yes, internet is good to know things, but pharmacology studies might be better....
If any of the Drs had to search the internet they would not see me again. I would certainly wonder what they did during those 7-10 years!
Selfmedicating you can do with over the counter meds, but read the instructions carefully as you can still overdose.

Edit: most of the antibiotic resistant patogens were created in countries with a lax prescription culture, or where antibiotics are prescription free.
The result is that it is more difficult, expensive and unpleasant to treat infections as we have to use antibiotics or combinations of, in higher doses and so on.

I am sure you are informed enough to self medicate correctly, but the vast of people are not.

 

[santaman2000]

Yes, the recommendations have changed. We used to give Amoxycillin the night before, one hour before and a couple of hours after the OP, if the patient had implants ( knee, hip, other joints and teeth ) plus some medical conditions ( heart, joint plus lowered immune system).

Now we only give it one hour before, and a couple of hours after the OP, if you had a recent implant or heart op.
No doubt thet will change again.

I was given a Rx for a full 10 day course.

 

[santaman2000]

I you are pregnant you do not want to take Doxycycline. Or a young child. Or if you have stomach problems, hiatus hernia.

Or if you are walking in the Highlands and are exposed to the sun...... did the internet site done by the chronic sufferers tell you that?


Yes, internet is good to know things, but pharmacology studies might be better....
If any of the Drs had to search the internet they would not see me again. I would certainly wonder what they did during those 7-10 years!
Selfmedicating you can do with over the counter meds, but read the instructions carefully as you can still overdose.

Edit: most of the antibiotic resistant patogens were created in countries with a lax prescription culture, or where antibiotics are prescription free.
The result is that it is more difficult, expensive and unpleasant to treat infections as we have to use antibiotics or combinations of, in higher doses and so on.

I am sure you are informed enough to self medicate correctly, but the vast of people are not.

Mostly agree with you. However, you can indeed legally buy antibiotics over the counter (without Rx) in Mexico.

 

[Janne]

I was given a Rx for a full 14 day course.

It is not wrong, but research shows it is not needed, unless you have medical conditions that can seriously damage you if the infection spreads. And the oral infection was severe.

One of the worst oral infections considering general complications is uncontrolled periodontal disease.

Without any operations or other invasive procedures, patients with perio disease ( gum problems) have a higher risk fir heart problrms

 

[Janne]

Mostly agree with you. However, you can indeed legally buy antibiotics over the counter (without Rx) in Mexico.

You can do that in many “second and third world” countries. Used to be ( still is?) possible in Spain, Portugal and Greece.

In Russia you could (can?) buy antibiotics for Tuberculosis. The course is long, 6 months. They took it to short a time, and developed an AB resistant TB strain.

 

[santaman2000]

It is not wrong, but research shows it is not needed, unless you have medical conditions that can seriously damage you if the infection spreads. And the oral infection was severe.

One of the worst oral infections considering general complications is uncontrolled periodontal disease.

Without any operations or other invasive procedures, patients with perio disease ( gum problems) have a higher risk fir heart problrms

My mistake though. I mistyped 14 days. The course was for 10 days. I'll correct that in my earlier post.