Re-establishing the natural balance - UK

[Janne]

British Isles (and the rest of Europe) as a mainly forest covered area was just a recent phase.
Ice- arctic Tundra ( still exists in Sweden, Finland, Russia)-heath, marshes and forest - meadows and fields.

The bulk of the ice vanished when, 15 000 years ago? Then it took a couple of thousand years to go from tundra to the mixed forest as we think of it?

Humans of all races and proto humans were trekking and influencing the area south of the ice for at least a couple of million years.

 

[Janne]

Tractor cut hedges are an eyesore, properly laid hedges beautiful.

 

[santaman2000]

.....
he idea that intensive farming somehow frees up land currently used for agriculture that will somehow magically revert to a “natural” state again misses the point - low intensity, sustainable agriculture over centuries is what created the natural environment and it has been the intensification of agriculture since the middle of the last century that has thrown things out of kilte.....

Actually I never meant that intensive (conventional) farming would mean shrinking existing farmland and allowing it to "revert." I meant that it will reduce the need to clear more farmland. "Sustainable" methods sound nice (and I like my food grown naturally and locally as much as you do) but the reality is we now have 7 billion mouths to feed and they need food they can afford.

 

[santaman2000]

,,,,,- at least in the UK we are free to plant a few carrots in our front gardens without the risk of being locked up!

https://www.usatoday24x7.com/florid...d-to-grow-vegetables-in-their-own-front-yard/

So can we; outside city limits (although in those limits is pretty draconian) Outside city limits I can stand on my front porch and shoot deer out of my "garden." (we have different meanings for the word "garden." A garden is a cultivated area ---- either a flower garden or more likely, a vegetable garden) From what I remember of the UK, very few people had a true front yard.

 

[santaman2000]

The wooded areas are increasing all over Europe, but not with a more natural, mixed forest, but with a pine mono culture.
In many areas they plant fast growing spruce varieties coming from other geographical areas.

The huge Oak trees we see around Europe are that size only because they were solitary trees, surrounded by pasture, so human interaction created them.......

Maybe. Maybe not. The common oak species here evolved a natural biological warfare system to ensure their "solitary" status. Most species of oaks produce leaves that are toxic to other plants. It's not just the shade of my oak trees that prevent me from growing a grass cover in the back yard; it's the toxic mulch as well. I imagine y'all's oaks are similar.

 

[santaman2000]

If you are genuinely interested in the history and ecology of UK hedgerows, I can highly recommend A Natural History of the Hedgerow by John Wright;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Hi...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Many of the hedges and other field boundaries in the UK that create a habitat for of birds and other wildlife predate Columbus’s voyage by centuries if not millennia - they ARE the natural environment albeit not the same one that existed the last time the ice receded.......

Don't misunderstand my comments. I really did appreciate the hedgerows when I lived there and I understand perfectly why you want to preserve them. I would also if I were in your place. I just find it mind boggling that they're considered part of the "natural" environment.

 

[Nomad64]

Actually I never meant that intensive (conventional) farming would mean shrinking existing farmland and allowing it to "revert." I meant that it will reduce the need to clear more farmland. "Sustainable" methods sound nice (and I like my food grown naturally and locally as much as you do) but the reality is we now have 7 billion mouths to feed and they need food they can afford.

There are not 7 billion people in the UK and pristine wilderness is not disappearing under the plough (at least not in the UK) to feed them.

So can we; outside city limits (although in those limits is pretty draconian) Outside city limits I can stand on my front porch and shoot deer out of my "garden." (we have different meanings for the word "garden." A garden is a cultivated area ---- either a flower garden or more likely, a vegetable garden) From what I remember of the UK, very few people had a true front yard.

The natural balance of this thread got out of kilter. It started with something very specific to the UK, but quickly migrated west with three folk filling four pages just between themselves, mostly about North America and Guam, but even the bits related to the UK were through a North American lens.

...

This is now for UK based folk to carry on about UK and European matters. There is a second thread, with all the posts about the Americas and other exotica over in Fair Game, where it has been moved due to the drift to hunting and pictures of dead things.

By posting a link to an article about people in Florida being prosecuted for growing veggies in their fron garden (it seems to be an issue elsewhere in the US), I was simply pointing out that restrictions on how landowners use their land were not unique to the UK. Unwittingly, I appear to have made a virtual hole in the virtual fence separating the free fire zone carefully created by C_Claycomb where non-indigenous species are free to discuss shooting (or indeed growing) stuff in their gardens from the pristine wilderness where others can discuss rewilding and other conservation issues in the UK.

Best fix the fence quickly and plant a double line of blackthorn which should help ensure a robust, long term barrier!

FWIW most traditional UK houses have a front and back garden and whilst the front garden was traditionally used for decorative flowers (these days, sadly many are concreted over to park cars on), AFAIK, no one in the UK has ever been prosecuted for growing potatoes rather than petunias at the front of their houses. During WW2 through the Dig for Victory campaign the UK government actively promoted the use of gardens (front and back) and just about any other green space for vegetable production.

http://www.homesweethomefront.co.uk/web_pages/hshf_dig_for_victory_pg.htm

Sadly, this drive to intensify agricultural production continued after the war, hence the grubbing out of “unproductive” hedges to create bigger fields, increased use of pesticides and herbicides which started the steep decline in many insect and bird species.

 

[Tony]

Unwittingly, I appear to have made a virtual hole in the virtual fence separating the free fire zone carefully created by C_Claycomb where non-indigenous species are free to discuss shooting (or indeed growing) stuff in their gardens from the pristine wilderness where others can discuss rewilding and other conservation issues in the UK.

Best fix the fence quickly and plant a double line of blackthorn which should help ensure a robust, long term barrier!

There's no issue with making posts and pointing things out, Chris is just doing as I've asked and that's to keep things on track and not let them wander off so much. If he's doing what I've asked then your sarcasm is actually, Unwittingly, directed at me.

This is just a general statement - Too often threads are getting taken away from other people by the intensity of posting from a few people, in this thread that happens to be sandman and Janne for the most part, I was reading away and the suddenly it turns all heavy and people are defending positions and there's little room to have a conversation any more because no one wants to keep up with the intensity of statement or posting quantity.

I'm not included in this thread and conversation but it does seem to have derailed a bit in a direction that doesn't contribute to the OP's intention.

So, please, everyone, be considerate, there's no need to be sarcastic with others, take the threads into places they don't need to go, be bolshy, challenge others just to prove a point and steamroll conversations or be defensive, which is how the thread comes across in many places over the last few pages...

Sometimes it's other people in other threads, it happens, but we should try to avoid it when it's obvious that it's not a discussion any more but just a bounce back and forth between a few people and all the original posters have bowed out of the conversation....That's quite telling.

Thanks all
T

 

[Nomad64]

There's no issue with making posts and pointing things out, Chris is just doing as I've asked and that's to keep things on track and not let them wander off so much. If he's doing what I've asked then your sarcasm is actually, Unwittingly, directed at me.

Tony, I think you have misread or at least misinterpreted my previous post which was certainly not intended as a dig at Chris C whose earlier intervention in splitting the thread was very welcome and helped restore the thread to its original and very interesting course.

The reason for including text from Chris C's earlier post in my reply to Santaman was simply as a subtle (perhaps too subtle!) reminder that this thread was intended to be limited to the UK experience and that a separate thread had been created for those keen to discuss shooting deer in Florida etc. and other issues not relevant to the UK.

Apologies for any confusion or upset caused, I'll wind my neck in!

 

[Toddy]

I didn't read it as a dig agin Chris, I thought it was a very good response that meant that I didn't need to start editing the thread. I suspect that Tony's been busy and just had a quick squint.
Please don't be discouraged from the conversation.

M

 

[santaman2000]

There are not 7 billion people in the UK and pristine wilderness is not disappearing under the plough (at least not in the UK) to feed them......

There are approximately 7 billion people worldwide. Food production stopped being a local enterprise many centuries ago when cities formed. It became a global enterprise long ago.

The UK population is approximately 6 & 1/2 million (mostly urban) people that depend on imports for more than half of their food.

 

[santaman2000]

....By posting a link to an article about people in Florida being prosecuted for growing veggies in their fron garden (it seems to be an issue elsewhere in the US), I was simply pointing out that restrictions on how landowners use their land were not unique to the UK......

And I agree with you. I don't agree with most of the restrictions (there or here) but I understand SOME of them such as protecting the ancient trees (though the initial posts seemed to indicate you needed permission to cut ANY trees)

 

[santaman2000]

.........WIW most traditional UK houses have a front and back garden and whilst the front garden was traditionally used for decorative flowers (these days, sadly many are concreted over to park cars on), AFAIK, no one in the UK has ever been prosecuted for growing potatoes rather than petunias at the front of their houses. During WW2 through the Dig for Victory campaign the UK government actively promoted the use of gardens (front and back) and just about any other green space for vegetable production......

I saw both types of houses when I was there, those with and those without yards (front or back) Most that did have yards were far too small to grow anything more than supplemental amounts of food. I grow my current crops (again, only supplemental in nature and largely for the joy of growing them) in containers in my FRONT yard. I chose the front because that's where I get the best sun and they won't be dug up by my dogs in the back yard. When I was a kid and teenager the family grew a series of kitchen gardens. It took a total of several acres spread in 5 smaller parcels to feed the family a reliable, year round (we froze veg for use after season) food supply. We didn't have a particularly large family; only 10 adults and 4 kids/teens plus the pets.

 

[Wayne]

And I agree with you. I don't agree with most of the restrictions (there or here) but I understand SOME of them such as protecting the ancient trees (though the initial posts seemed to indicate you needed permission to cut ANY trees)

The UK lacks space in comparison to many parts of the world. Therefore some of the freedoms others enjoy are not possible here. The UK doesn’t have any Federal Lands, all our national parks are owned by a collection of private landowners of various sizes. Small holders through to the military and the National Trust.

Therefore you cannot just go cut trees down even on land you own.

https://www.forestry.gov.uk/england-fellinglicences

 

[Janne]

Britain managed to survive during WW2 by utilizing the small gardens plus spaces in parks and so on. the food importation went down severely.
People were eating less, and very frugally.
The agricultural sector became less efficient due to lack of manpower and lack of fuel for the machinery.
The ladies that started working in the agriculture (Land Girls?) were not as efficient as the previous farm workers.

Yet, people were healthier during the war than before and of course now.

If we changed our eating habits, wasted less food, utilized the full production ( 'wonky fruit and spotty apples"), we could import less, maybe even lessen the acreage under cultivation and dedicate the 'freed up' land for establishing areas of 'nature'.

(This post applies to all of Europe and the World.)


Impossible Utopia though!

 

[Wayne]

I think you have factor in the vastly increased population into the equation. I doubt very much that the UK could effectively be self sufficient in its food production we are no longer self sufficient on energy etc.

 

[Toddy]

Ah but we are getting there, and we're getting better at it too.
I think the major issue is variety of foodstuffs. Our climate precludes many crops, but glasshouses are excellent, just that they do need heating while countries like Spain just use the sunshine as is, and at present our farmers can't compete with crops like tomatoes and other 'hothouse' fruits.
We now have varieties of wheat and corn that do grow and seed successfully in our climate, and that number is increasing.
It's all in the economics I reckon.

M

 

[Robson Valley]

Toddy: Do your growers fertilize the air in their glass houses?
Here, they buy carbon dioxide from the breweries (yeast pharts) and jack the air up to 3% CO2.

 

[Janne]

Ah but we are getting there, and we're getting better at it too.
I think the major issue is variety of foodstuffs. Our climate precludes many crops, but glasshouses are excellent, just that they do need heating while countries like Spain just use the sunshine as is, and at present our farmers can't compete with crops like tomatoes and other 'hothouse' fruits.
We now have varieties of wheat and corn that do grow and seed successfully in our climate, and that number is increasing.
It's all in the economics I reckon.

M

Exactly. The consumer has been 'lured' to like and demand exotic fruit and veg, which the farmer in Uk (+ northern Europe) can not produce, or can not produce the "quality" expected.

I have a friend that during our studies ( 3 decades ago) worked weekends in a tomato hothose in Sweden. About 75% of the produce was rejected due to tiny blemishes or uneven form.

Still goes on. I think that is criminal to waste such excellent food.

My parents lived in the Alicante region, when visiting I saw fully laden dirty trucks trucking oranges and tomatoes. Ask dad about the bad hygiene he said 'no problem, they are driving to the landfill'.


I think Britain (and other European countries) could import far less food if we consumed what is eing grown, not the top, Grade A, selection.

Buy wonky, UK produce and make the farmers happy!

 

[Robson Valley]

At last! Our grocery stores can discount and sell less than perfect fresh produce.
Truck-loads of "frankencarrots" that never would have made it out of the field.
Potatoes and onions with harvesting cuts.
And, the bins are always sold out.
So my tomatoes have freckles. I'll trim that and into a spag sauce. Who's to know?
I'm used to it now, I buy veg from local growers, 3-legged carrots and all.

Just read the other day that there's a growing nucleus of formally organized people called "The small meat producers."
Farm-gate sales and so forth. Must be the same in the UK.

True, "degree-days" is a crucial factor in veg & fruit production.
Even so, I'm at 53N and I share my grape crop with local eating houses before I turn the pickers loose in there.