New car - those low profile' alloy tyres/hubs?

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Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,154
1,546
Cumbria
Right! Getting a new family car to lug around huge tents, bikes, bike trailers, assorted kit, oh and family. Mustn't forget them or I'll struggle to put up tent.

That is beginning to look like a Mondeo estate in 2.0 litre diesel or similar. Saw a reasonable 2.2 litre diesel Mondeo that's cheap. It had those alloy hubs with tyres with only a bit of rubber to them. They call them low profiles I believe.

Question is, do they make for a bumpier or harsher rides? I'm very likely to be driving in country with pretty bumpy roads. Am I better looking for normal three/hubs or alloys with normal tyres?

Also, what is the benefits of alloys over steel hubs?

Also, what else out there equivalent to a Mondeo estate in terms of price, reliability, performance, economy and space? Tempted by Mazda 5 or 6 estate, Citroen C5 estate and vectra estate as alternatives. Any opinions? Think I'll get more bang for my bucks from a Vauxhall or Ford.

I'm upgrading from Astra estate 1.7DTi and have 5k plus part ex to spend or 6k if special option.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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Low profile tyre are for posers - they serve no useful purpose and the wheels are both more vulnerable to damage and expensive to replace. I have taken them off my estate and replaced with smaller steel wheels that give a much better tyre choice.
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
Low profile has a wider tread pattern and will give more road noise and a harsher ride. You also need to keep a eye on pressures as its easy to damage a rim. They are not just for posers though. The thinking behind them is for performance engines where a standard pattern could not handle the power delivered to the tyre.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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Which does not apply to a diesel Mondeo! I don't buy them at all on a road going car - they actually mean you can't get tyres with a deep tread as they wont fit in the wheel arch. My four wheel drive estate came with alloys (another stupid idea) and low profile tyres. Of course you now have a four wheel drive that cannot accept an all terrain tyre!
 

ex-member BareThrills

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 5, 2011
4,461
3
United Kingdom
My 4x4 is legendary off road on low profile tyres. Got schooled by Karl82's Corsa :D

They come in handy on the road though when im connecting all those torques to the tarmac.
 

davidpingu

Forager
Nov 3, 2012
132
1
Cwmbran
Generally the lower the profile tyre, the less side wall flex meaning more driver focus, better feedback through the wheel.

More manufacturers are doing this because demand is high for big multi-purpose cars to still give you some fun behind the wheel. Some people need a big estate but still want something rewarding to drive. Examples - Volvo 850 T5, Subaru Impreza Wagon, Focus ST estate, Mondeo ST estate.

It's horses for courses usually. If you drive a lot of very bad roads then this is likely to ruin your drive but if most of your driving is on reasonably maintained roads then they just add that bit of an edge. Just to note that generally Fords tend to run quite a tuned suspension set up, stiffer than average.

Alloys are purely for aesthetics. If you have a sport trim estate, steel wheels and big tyres will look odd. If you're careful then you shouldn't scratch them so its no big deal.

Also note that just because a tyre is thinner it doesn't necessarily mean its no good off road. Extreme case here but took a range rover sport on some pretty mean off road obstacles on 22" low profiles and it was amazing on just about anything.

I'm a big fan of alloys and low profiles but that's because I enjoy the sensation of a drivers car. If you are just looking for a mode of transport though and nothing else then Red is right, the bigger tyres will be more compliant and will be cheaper to replace.

For me, its Japanese brands all the way. Honda, Toyota, Mazda.... It's like BMW reliability for Ford sort of money.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
They also change the cornering characteristics of the vehicle, sometimes dramatically. Low profiles basically mean less sidewall flex, both rotationally and laterally. In higher profile tyres, the lateral flex that occurs during heavy cornering gives a more progressive feel than with low profiles - you can feel the car get closer to the limits of adhesion. Low profiles tend more towards having most of the grip, to suddenly having very little. The shape of the contact patch also differs. Higher profile tyres compress more under the car's weight, giving a rounder patch, while low profiles compress less and give a more elongated patch. To get the same contact area, low profile tyres of a given diameter have to be wider. Also because of the lack of sidewall compression, low profile tyres are likely to feel more skittish on bumpy or rough surfaces - they don't squidge into the troughs as well, resulting in less momentary contact area, meaning less grip on corners with such surfaces.

Low profile tyres do increase steering feel and response, however - a high sidewall effectively acts as a damper between a given steering input and the tread of the tyre turning in response to that input. Low profiles are much more responsive - the car reacts more quickly to steering inputs. Another thing that happens with low profiles is 'tramlining', which is an effect where the car tries to follow things like seams in the road - the little elongated bump tries to push the tyre off course. The reduced damping in a low profile means that you can feel this through the steering wheel more readily (and have to consciously correct it), while it is far less noticeable with higher profiles.

I'm not entirely sure that I'd want to have low profiles on a 'family car' type of vehicle unless it has been specifically designed for them. The suspension geometry has to control the wheels in such a way that the contact patch is maintained, both when the wheels go up and down over bumps when the car body is level, and when it goes round corners and the car body is tilted over -and especially when it encounters bumps while cornering. On a sports car with very little body roll, it's a different matter - the amount of camber change over bumps or on corners is far less, so the contact area is better maintained (excessive camber change would mean trying to run a stiff tyre on its edge, which means very little grip, while squidgy sidewalls will retain a greater contact area and thus better grip).
 

Shewie

Mod
Mod
Dec 15, 2005
24,259
24
48
Yorkshire
I've been driving a Toyota Avensis estate since January, quite a change to my usual hot hatches. Loads of room to get the wrinklies in and plenty of space for camping gear. 2.0 diesel, around 160bhp and does 550-600 miles to the tank. British built and easy to get parts for, not that I care as it's a company car and it'll go back in two years, then it's hot hatch time again :)
 

davidpingu

Forager
Nov 3, 2012
132
1
Cwmbran
They also change the cornering characteristics of the vehicle, sometimes dramatically. Low profiles basically mean less sidewall flex, both rotationally and laterally. In higher profile tyres, the lateral flex that occurs during heavy cornering gives a more progressive feel than with low profiles - you can feel the car get closer to the limits of adhesion. Low profiles tend more towards having most of the grip, to suddenly having very little. The shape of the contact patch also differs. Higher profile tyres compress more under the car's weight, giving a rounder patch, while low profiles compress less and give a more elongated patch. To get the same contact area, low profile tyres of a given diameter have to be wider. Also because of the lack of sidewall compression, low profile tyres are likely to feel more skittish on bumpy or rough surfaces - they don't squidge into the troughs as well, resulting in less momentary contact area, meaning less grip on corners with such surfaces.

Low profile tyres do increase steering feel and response, however - a high sidewall effectively acts as a damper between a given steering input and the tread of the tyre turning in response to that input. Low profiles are much more responsive - the car reacts more quickly to steering inputs. Another thing that happens with low profiles is 'tramlining', which is an effect where the car tries to follow things like seams in the road - the little elongated bump tries to push the tyre off course. The reduced damping in a low profile means that you can feel this through the steering wheel more readily (and have to consciously correct it), while it is far less noticeable with higher profiles.

I'm not entirely sure that I'd want to have low profiles on a 'family car' type of vehicle unless it has been specifically designed for them. The suspension geometry has to control the wheels in such a way that the contact patch is maintained, both when the wheels go up and down over bumps when the car body is level, and when it goes round corners and the car body is tilted over -and especially when it encounters bumps while cornering. On a sports car with very little body roll, it's a different matter - the amount of camber change over bumps or on corners is far less, so the contact area is better maintained (excessive camber change would mean trying to run a stiff tyre on its edge, which means very little grip, while squidgy sidewalls will retain a greater contact area and thus better grip).

Tramlining is a good point actually, I forgot to mention that and it does occasionally catch you off guard!!
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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If its a racing car running Ray's Engineering wheels yes! I doubt this is the consideration of the average manufacturer though. Generally speaking I think people want alloys for the looks more than anything else.

Just so - some of these things may have a marginal effect on racing cars driven at speed on a track. I venture to suggest however that if one is putting down enough power that a conventional steel wheel and normal profile tyre is insufficient then one is not driving safely on a public road. I was lucky enough to drive a performance car of > 400bhp around Brands Hatch GP circuit. That car did not need low profile tyres to go through tight bends at way over the speed limit - so I really cannot see how they are ever needed on the road.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
If its a racing car running Ray's Engineering wheels yes! :p I doubt this is the consideration of the average manufacturer though. Generally speaking I think people want alloys for the looks more than anything else.

Not really. Alloy wheels don't look all that good. If it's looks you're going for get chromed wheels. But you're right in that the weight reduction for alloy wheels isn't enough to make much difference in the average driver's performance or MPG. But then, the average driver believes whatever the sales pitch says.
 

davidpingu

Forager
Nov 3, 2012
132
1
Cwmbran
Just so - some of these things may have a marginal effect on racing cars driven at speed on a track. I venture to suggest however that if one is putting down enough power that a conventional steel wheel and normal profile tyre is insufficient then one is not driving safely on a public road. I was lucky enough to drive a performance car of > 400bhp around Brands Hatch GP circuit. That car did not need low profile tyres to go through tight bends at way over the speed limit - so I really cannot see how they are ever needed on the road.

That surprises me that anything they run on track doesn't have low profiles? I guess it depends on what we determine as low profile.

What I do know is when I bought my car it was running 18inch wheels on 40 profile. As the car is designed to run 17s I switched back to that size on 45s and the ride and handling was noticeably better in every way! Made sure I went for the reinforced side wall option of the tyre and it's perfect.

Moral of the story, over enlarged alloys not designed by manufacturer destroy handling!

What was it you drove Red? I'm hoping to take my own on track for the first time next April. Was also at Brands weekend before last for the final BTCC :)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,709
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Mercia
M5 David - a good number of years ago now before low profiles became all the rage. A very interesting day. Every car in the then BMW (with some customised ones too) line up was available to drive bar one which was a basic 5 series diesel driven by a professional race driver. The most sobering thing was the way that basic diesel went past all the more powerful cars. I learned two things that day

1) Equipment is no substitute for skill
2) I will never make a race driver

Great fun and having a race driver in the passenger seat to coach me and get lap times up was very illuminating - I learned a great deal on the circuit and more on the skid pan.


My Outlander came with 18" alloys with low profiles. I have put 16" steels on to replace them with some decent tyres having mullahed one of the alloys in a pot hole on the road - cost a fortune to replace. Round here, good grip and hub strength trumps pretty every time :)
 

Stringmaker

Native
Sep 6, 2010
1,891
1
UK
Basically, it's all been said.

For the Mondeo example you looked at it doesn't sound like those wheels are standard equipment (OE) and will serve you no purpose for the intended use you describe. Alloy wheels are all about unsprung weight and steering dynamics but again, for loading up a load of gear + family the performance is kind of shot anyway.
 

bert333

Settler
Jan 15, 2008
701
7
Earth- for awhile longer...
you want solid? no poseur kit? fixable? then opt for steel rims which can be bashed back into shape (if need be) or welded- Low profile tyres? HA! Nooooo, BF Goodrich AT's everytime.
But then I don't drive a family orientated vehicle..!:eek: ( ! xulih atoyot )
 

resnikov

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDI estate, superb car ( see what i did there :) ) huge amount of room, very reliable and reasonable priced.

+1 to that. Good joke too :)

If you can find one at the right price get a Superb instead of the Octavia. I love my Superb, wish I had got the easte, only so I could fit a dog in if I wanted. Saloon has a cavernous boot and there is masses of leg room in the front and back of the car.
 

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